Looking for assistance on first automation project

[rykman]

I am about to start to add some automation to my home. As in everything I do I have performed some research and as always what I have found is conflicting and at times confusion. So I would like to get some advice and assistance.

I would like to start very small and satisfy an immediate desire. The first project is simple; I would like to be able to control the lights in the family room where my entertainment equipment is. I have 2 sets of high hats, and two table lamps. I want to control them with my Harmony 880 (IR) remote, preferably via the hidden IR system I use to control the components in the cabinet.

I understand all the things I can do and would like to eventually move into these areas but I would like to try to waste as few dollars as possible and enter this with a small investment and grow the capabilities when and if I feel it is worth it. Will probably utilize a PC software solution eventually. Looked at mcontrol as they have integrated into WHS and I am hoping some of the other vendors will consider WHS. If I go with some other solution it will need to be able to run on WHS server.

This is a retrofit. My home is 30 years old but is hardwired with Cat5, running the cat5 was hard enough and I do not want to pull any additional wiring if possible.

Technology I currently have.

Basement office is control central:
1 - PC workstation – XP
1 - Laptop for work
1 - MS home server – 2TB disk space
Gigabit switch for LAN
Cable modem & wired gigabit router
Phone network
Receiver connected to PC to distribute audio to Bar/game room – workshop - garage

2 – PC’s in kid’s bedrooms, additional network switches to allow gamers to plug laptops into network

Family room:
Harmony 880 remote
Yamaha home theater receiver (also distributes audio to back yard)
Samsung LCD
Cablevision DVR 8500HD with a 500GB external HD
HTPC (or my version of it) XP with ATI AIW X800

I use this for web access, email, access my video, audio and pictures from WHS. Found software to show my video collection in a friendlier UI – Media Portal - it does a good and easy job of getting the information from IMDb.
Until it is possible to access all my cable channels for time shifting and recording I do not use the HTPC to control the TV. I know it is not what I ultimately want but until the industry allows PC’s to have cable card capabilities for DIYers I am stuck with two disconnected systems. It is not that big of a problem as I do not have a huge need to share the video recorded from normal TV but I would like to be able to record movies from the pay channels and share those but it is what it is. Right now I can record them from the 8500HD to the PC via the copy to VCR capability but the picture quality is not as good as I would desire.
​

Except for the laptop I built all the PC’s in the house.

Future ideas are probably all the normal stuff; automate all of the lights throughout the house. Upgrade family room receiver to an A/V receiver to centralize AV connections and upconvert all singles. Distribute audio into kitchen and bedroom. Add security cameras. Possibly (far future) swap out an old ADT security system with something else.

 

[Steve]

If you want to use software you could probably switch your lights over to some protocol that is supported, Insteon, UPB, Zwave, or dare I even say x10. The you probably need something like a USB-UIRT for your pc. You would route your IR to the USB-UIRT on the pc and the software on the pc could pick that up and send the proper signals to the lights. Whatever software you choose would have to support the IR hub and lighting interface.

Your ADT system may support x10 and that could work to control the lights, but there is no good way to have that IR controllable.

 

[DavidL]

Hi Rykman,
MainLobby runs on Windows Home Server no problem. We now build turnkey WHS servers with Mainlobby software preinstalled. Nice combo.

MainLobby products are priced ala carte so you can build your system up when you are ready to take on more features, more setup and more expense (hardware and software).

We have the USBIR6 that can work with your Harmony. Installs in the PC so installation is clean. It is a multizone IR transceiver. This is probably best way to control your Cablevision box.

There is a RS232 Yamaha receiver plugin available now.

Our DVDLobby product has added super easy means to add more movies to your system. We aren't aware of a system that is more configurable, or easy to use.

There is a robust plugin for BeyondTV for PVR support. Only takes a couple of minutes to install, once you have BeyondTV up and running.

If you decide to swap the ADT, we support the ELK and HAI security panels.

Welcome to cocoontech. have fun with automating your home!

 

[rykman]

If you want to use software you could probably switch your lights over to some protocol that is supported, Insteon, UPB, Zwave, or dare I even say x10. The you probably need something like a USB-UIRT for your pc. You would route your IR to the USB-UIRT on the pc and the software on the pc could pick that up and send the proper signals to the lights. Whatever software you choose would have to support the IR hub and lighting interface.

Your ADT system may support x10 and that could work to control the lights, but there is no good way to have that IR controllable.

I looked at the USB-UIRT but from what I can tell it is not going to help if that PC is not on. The only pc up 24X7 is the server. I need an IR device that can send either over the network or to the devices directly.

 

[IVB]

I put this on your AVSForum thread with the same question, repeating here for consistency.

The difficulty with the first project you've chosen (control lighting via an IR remote) is that it pretty much requires a software based solution. No other way that I know of to use standard IR to control Insteon/zWave/UPB/etc directly.

CQC has been confirmed to work on WHS by an end-user, so that's certainly one possible option. I'm sure all the standard software packages will work (Girder/ML/etc), so the path i'd recommend is to determine what your end-state will look like, which software package is built in a way that makes sense to you, and use that as the first step.

I'm sure you've seen my posts, i can certainly help with setup guidance if you choose the CQC path.

I looked at the USB-UIRT but from what I can tell it is not going to help if that PC is not on. The only pc up 24X7 is the server. I need an IR device that can send either over the network or to the devices directly.

I think you're confusing IR receiving with IR blasting. All you need to do is have the PC receive the IR command. If you use CQC as your software solution, it's a whole-house license, so you could just install a server copy on every PC you want at no additional cost. Install on that PC, declare it as the "Master Server", but use any other PC you want as a 2ndary server. CQC will handle the server-server communications behind the scenes, with no action required by you.

That means you could attach your IR receiver to the server, and catch the button presses on your PC. Attach the lighting controller (ie, zWave controller) to that server, and the same machine can send out the signal in native format.

 

[TeleFragger]

Possibly (far future) swap out an old ADT security system with something else.

im doing that now..
what adt system do you have?

I have the caretaker system from iti...

I called adt and said I wanted a new alarm and they told me they will put the concord 4 in as everything I have is wireless.....

however im going to buy it myself and get rid of adt....


I have been looking at the elk, however for the cost.. yeah more features in the elk but it would be like buying a lamborguini and driving in a school zone......

features im not going to use....


even my old adt system now when you arm the system puts a P ALL ON and P ALL OF in my homeseer logs..... so yeah even the old system does x10 based stuff......

 

[Fletch]

...I would like to start very small and satisfy an immediate desire. The first project is simple; I would like to be able to control the lights in the family room where my entertainment equipment is. I have 2 sets of high hats, and two table lamps. I want to control them with my Harmony 880 (IR) remote, preferably via the hidden IR system I use to control the components in the cabinet.

I think some of the responses you've received are not taking into consideration the scope you've defined. Specifically the start very small portion of your question. The easiest thing to do would be to start with an IR543 and a couple of X10 based switches and lamp modules. The IR543 is an IR enabled X10 mini-controller, it will receive IR signals from your remote and convert it to an X10 signal on the powerline. By replacing the switches that control the highhats and placing lamp modules on the table lamps you will be able to control the lights in the room with the entertainment equipment. The Harmony is able to send multiple IR commands in response to a single button press, so even if the lights are controlled separately one button can turn on/off or dim the lights. This would meet your initial request. However I suspect you may not get the exact results you hope for. Specifically if the lights aren't all on the same X10 house and unit code, they will come on or go off sequentially. If you spend more on the switches and lamp modules you can get ones that are "scene-aware", which will operate more as you expect. But to me this is more along the lines of what you are asking for. Here's a link to the IR543
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...t=19&page=1


Aaron

 

[IVB]

I think some of the responses you've received are not taking into consideration the scope you've defined. Specifically the start very small portion of your question. The easiest thing to do would be to start with an IR543 and a couple of X10 based switches and lamp modules... But to me this is more along the lines of what you are asking for.

That's true, point well taken, but the way I read the future desire, I'd be concerned about the following. This may not be the OPs concerns, so how he feels may be different.
1) Wasting my time on something that would be ripped out later. Life is hard & busy enough to not worry about learning something that has a limited shelf-life.
2) Going with a protocol that won't be robust enough for the future also has the risk of damaging WAF beyond repair, and abandoning the project entirely b/c of a first decision that could lead me to believe that the target future state may not be attainable.

Both points actually hit close to home for me - I spent dozens upon dozens of hours getting Girder (3.1, last freeware version) to work with 75% accuracy, and attempting to learn ML/xLobby/NetRemote only to realize I would never understand it. I would have walked away from HA entirely if it were not for Dean & rhamer babystepping me through CQC.

 

[rykman]

I just looked at the CQC site, the software looks interesting. Do they actually charge $95 a year for software maintenance? I can understand license fees but I have never paid maintenance fees. If I want to only upgrade every two or five years then I should be able to just purchase the product.

My first thoughts on this effort was the IR543 and x10 controllers, but x10 sounded like the most inferior solution. So that would be throw away. I am still thinking of the ir543 for my IR device and then I assume I can use one of the software products to accept that command and send it to other products like zwave. Do these software products enable the convergence of the different solutions.

Another question I have is if I use lets say zwave can I use different vendors products with no compatibility issues?

 

[IVB]

I just looked at the CQC site, the software looks interesting. Do they actually charge $95 a year for software maintenance? I can understand license fees but I have never paid maintenance fees. If I want to only upgrade every two or five years then I should be able to just purchase the product.

Let me answer this way, as i'm not sure what the difference between "license fee" and "maintenance fee" is to you. I also don't work for CQC, so don't be surprised if Dean steps in and corrects me on this stuff.

Yes, you pay $95/year for all upgrades to the product. The only thing you don't get is if they release a new "major" component. In 5 years, the only thing that qualified was the media stuff. But everything else is free.

I know most folks' first response is "why", but keep in mind:
1) That's a whole-house, all products, all drivers, all plugins, license. That means you cannot possibly spend any more $$ on CQC. Compare that with the all-in cost on other products with a la carte pricing - you may think you're paying less, but in the end, anyone doing a serious amount of HA will pay more. My cost with one of the other vendors would have been $1500 for initial software purchase alone, much less future upgrade costs.
2) If you upgrade every 2 years, you will almost definitely pay the same amount in upgrade fees to other vendors.
3) As opposed to almost every other vendor, CQC issues non-trivial upgrades quite often. V2.0 came out on 12/12/07. V2.3 will most likely be out before 12/12/08 (it's in final public beta now). And, there's a significant amount of functionality in each upgrade. Check out the CQC announcements forum for what they each had. There's pretty much zero chance you'll be able to resist upgrading to 1x/2 years. Every release so far has had at least one thing that really helped me uplevel my capabilities, but there's no chance I would have upgraded if I had to pay every time.

Of course, finally is the reason you wouldn't want to hear - the HA software market is so small and there's now so much competition that there's the slimmest of chances a company could survive for the next 5 years without some predictable, recurring revenue source. Either issue upgrades regularly and charge for them, regardless of whether they're value-add or not, or charge an annual licensing model and give upgrades for free. The latter keeps bloat-ware to a minimum, so that's the path CQC chose.

But, in the end, you need to determine whether committing yourself to a product that asks $95/year is your style. For me, the peace of mind that this would help CQC focus on rapid technology upgrades, and not worry about licensing/versions/etc, was well worth it. It may not be for you.

Another question I have is if I use lets say zwave can I use different vendors products with no compatibility issues?

Differing experiences there. I've mixed lighting mfrs with no issues, but i know Micah and some others have had difficulties once they leave the lighting world (ie, thermo's).

 

[Dean Roddey]

I just looked at the CQC site, the software looks interesting. Do they actually charge $95 a year for software maintenance? I can understand license fees but I have never paid maintenance fees. If I want to only upgrade every two or five years then I should be able to just purchase the product.

As Vivek pointed out, we don't charge for releases, we just charge a flat fee per year. That way, we don't have to fluff up releases to justify charging for them. We can put out a larger number of smaller releases, or a couple big ones, whatever is most appropriate for the current situation. But, in the end, we add a lot of functionality to the product every year, however it's actually released, and that's a lot of work.

We really want to discourage people from waiting years to upgrade, because it's a significant burden on us to have to try to support versions that old. We want to put our limited resources into improvement of the product. And we do work hard to make our upgrades as painless as possible, which is a lot of work for such a large and complex product.

Also, as Vivek pointed out, if everyone bought one version of it and never upgraded for five years, it would hard on us, because this is a small market and it doesn't have the kinds of exponential growth that allows a company to survive and grow on new customers. We need a dependable source of some amount of recurring revenues, to avoid the all too common feast and famine problem that software companies have.

 

[rykman]

Possibly (far future) swap out an old ADT security system with something else.

im doing that now..
what adt system do you have?

I have the caretaker system from iti...

I called adt and said I wanted a new alarm and they told me they will put the concord 4 in as everything I have is wireless.....

however im going to buy it myself and get rid of adt....


I have been looking at the elk, however for the cost.. yeah more features in the elk but it would be like buying a lamborguini and driving in a school zone......

features im not going to use....


even my old adt system now when you arm the system puts a P ALL ON and P ALL OF in my homeseer logs..... so yeah even the old system does x10 based stuff......

The ADT system is a Safewatch Custom RF - it is a proprietary ADT system. I have not found anyone who can unlock it and allow me to reprogram it myself. So it does it's job for now and will be a future consideration.

How is the Homeseer software. It seems to me I am going to have to consider a software solution.

 

[shenandoah75]

"Another question I have is if I use lets say zwave can I use different vendors products with no compatibility issues?"

"Differing experiences there. I've mixed lighting mfrs with no issues, but i know Micah and some others have had difficulties once they leave the lighting world (ie, thermo's). "

That may be true, but i think too many people are trying to lock into zwave as a platform for do everything... See the post on controlling a water recirculating pump with a zwave switch as an example. I'm not saying there are no cases... Johnny9's post on 240V zwave control of his pool features next to his pool lighting was a better use case in my opinion. Zwave is awesome as a lighting solution and in terms of integrating that lighting elsewhere. But in my opinion you will never get full/complete automation with zwave alone. You need either a hardware/software solution like the elk or a pc to drive real things like timed / event driven events. Maybe some of the more complex controllers offer limited timed based actions, but nothing like you could get with the elk and/or cqc/ML... But you don't need and in my opinion don't want everything in your house controlled from zone controllers in jboxes, it's just not logical to me...

Relays/contactors and other options offer just as much if not more flexibility outside the lighting realm... You don't need a zwave garage door opener (i use one elk relay for tying that into HA). You're security system generally won't be zwave based (esp if two way comm isn't supported). I don't understand why anyone would prefer zwave as the technology for controlling their thermostat. If you choose zwave as your platform, i say stick with one vendor for lighting as a consitent look and feel and if possible for for a vendor that offers 2way comm (leviton and maybe cooper now?)

I use the elk as the backbone including security and automation and zwave for lighting. Everything else outside of lighting is tied in through the elk expansion cards. Serial/HAI for thermostat (not zwave), relays/conmtactors for electrical automation, sprinklers (no zwave), doors... And everything as far as i'm aware is fully two-way comm enabled.


Anyway, i think everyone has their own preferences, but until car mfgs start offering zwave native remotes instead of homelink and all zwave mfgs support two-way comm with an advanced controller, i think i'm right :lol:

 

[rykman]

I agree with everything you state about the CQC method of maintenance, once I think about it if I put the considerable time and money into a project I would want to be sure it is maintained.
For my current situation it just does not look like a fit, but would be a consideration if I decide to continue this endeavor for the whole house and tied everything together.
I am looking for a small start with a low cost of entry, not cheap or inferior, I try not to purchase crap, but I also do not purchase a jet to go to the corner.

Does anyone have any ideas on my situation, is there less expensive software or something I can use to set this up and decide later if I want to upgrade. What other software can I use to converge differing products like x10 and zwave. From what I understand I can easily use x10 & Insteon.

 

[IVB]

Girder has done amazing things lately, i'd def recommend looking into that for a lower-cost sol'n.