Multi Zone Audio with Existing Wires

[ano]

So I purchased a house that has a set of speakers in 6 rooms, and each are wired through an impedance adjusting volume control on the wall in the room, then the wires come back to one central location.  I want to install a multi-zone audio controller, but I can't run new wires.  So I need a controller that can use the four existing wires to the wall controller, with the four speaker wires coming from there.
 
All the controllers I have seen require four wires to the speakers, and then additional wires from the wall controller to the zone controller.  Has anyone seen a system that can power both the wall controller and the set of speakers from the same four wires?   I guess another alternative would be to use the four wires in place for the speakers, but then use some type of wireless wall controller. Not my first choice, but I'll do it if I have to.
 
Any ideas? 

 

[drvnbysound]

I'm a bit confused by your OP.
 
Do you have 4 wires (left +/-, and right +/-) for each of 6 zones at the central location, or do you ONLY have 4 wires at the central location? 
 
You mention both impedance adjusting volume control, and wall controller. Are you interchanging these terms or are you meaning different things?

 

[pete_c]

Has anyone seen a system that can power both the wall controller and the set of speakers from the same four wires?

 
I have not.
 

I guess another alternative would be to use the four wires in place for the speakers, but then use some type of wireless wall controller. Not my first choice, but I'll do it if I have to.

 
Yup; it wouldn't be difficult to do this.  (IE: my wired or wireless tabletop touchscreens today do control the Russound hardware and provide whatever metadata that I want)
 
Sounds like it will be a PITA to get this working without more than 4 wires.  A Sonos wireless zoned system will probably be your best choice if you fast and cheap (personally not into this wireless audio stuff).
 
That said you can also a la carte a Sonos server box sans anything else and use it as a music server.  Those 2014 Superbowl Sonos ads were cutesy.
 
There are also now wireless networked audio controllers such that you can just utilize the wires for your speakers and the wireless controller connection to your zoned amp if you want to do it this way.
 
Here pre-wired 4 speaker wires and one cat5e wire to every place where I installed speakers. (12 + 8 over time). 
 
That said started initially with the Leviton Chopin digital volume controls having burnt out (it was a flash and burn inside of the wall) one pot in one wall during a party with loud music.
 
Looking at my Russound legacy keypads wiring (8 wires cat5e) it appears that there are two serial com links plus power to each of the keypads. (such that I can use IR and press buttons).
 
The new Russound wired keypads are two-gang box sized and do much more than the legacy KPL's that I am using.  (buttons, display, IR, aux input, and metadata - which really is a lot for tiny two gang box setup).
 

 
Just relating to using Russound you can use the wireless C-Series MyRussound App to control a Russound C-Series zoned amplifier. (personally this would be my choice over using a Sonos for everything).
 

 
I am guessing here but it controls the hardware zones stuff (which zone, what volume, what source plus eye candy metadata stuff).  IE: no wires are needed to control the zoned amp.
 
Standard Features
- Remote zone control
- Source metadata
- Content browsing
 
You could DIY some remote wireless network control pad for the Mono Price zoned amp.  IE: put the application on an RPi maybe, connect it serially to the Mono Price Zoned amp and just use serial control for everything.
 
There was / is one MonoPrice Zoned CT amp user that might be doing that today.  Think that Mike also wrote a Homeseer plugin for the zoned amplifier.
 
Look here too on the AVS forum.  Looks like there are two apps. (3)
 

 

 

[ano]

I'm a bit confused by your OP.
 
Do you have 4 wires (left +/-, and right +/-) for each of 6 zones at the central location, or do you ONLY have 4 wires at the central location? 
 
You mention both impedance adjusting volume control, and wall controller. Are you interchanging these terms or are you meaning different things?

The house is about 16 years old, and what builders installed at that time (maybe they still do) is stereo speakers in each room that are wired to a volume knob in the wall. These volume knobs, in addition to adjusting volume, also increase the impedance to a set value based on how many sets of speakers you have.  For example, if you have 5 rooms, the setting would be such so the impedance stayed at around 50 ohms. Then these wires, 4 from each room, R+, R-, L+, L-, all are wired back to an amp.  They are left as separate wires, but typically you wire all these in parallel. So the amp only "sees" about 8 ohms even though you have 5 rooms of speakers. So I can access the separate wires for each room if I need to.
 
So, now the question becomes, what to do with this?  Maybe the best solution, with what I'm hearing, is to just leave it like it is.  I could wire it to a multi-zone system, but I would have to walk over to that system to change the sources. That wouldn't be so bad. Changing sources in the room would be best, but if I can't, I can live with that I think.

 

[ano]

If you have never seen the impedance matching volume controls, they look something like this:
http://www.inwallstore.com/Russound_Volume_Control_ALTx2D_p/ALTX2D.htm?gclid=CMapw-LN58MCFQdhfgodayAAmw
These are used when you have one amp drive all the speakers in your house. Since only two of us live in the house anyway, now that I think about it more, I'm not sure i need the ability to have different sources in every room.  Even in the multi-million dollar models I've toured, it seems the same source is playing in all rooms.  that will probably be "good enough."

 

[drvnbysound]

The house is about 16 years old, and what builders installed at that time (maybe they still do) is stereo speakers in each room that are wired to a volume knob in the wall. These volume knobs, in addition to adjusting volume, also increase the impedance to a set value based on how many sets of speakers you have.  For example, if you have 5 rooms, the setting would be such so the impedance stayed at around 50 ohms. Then these wires, 4 from each room, R+, R-, L+, L-, all are wired back to an amp.  They are left as separate wires, but typically you wire all these in parallel. So the amp only "sees" about 8 ohms even though you have 5 rooms of speakers. So I can access the separate wires for each room if I need to.
 
So, now the question becomes, what to do with this?  Maybe the best solution, with what I'm hearing, is to just leave it like it is.  I could wire it to a multi-zone system, but I would have to walk over to that system to change the sources. That wouldn't be so bad. Changing sources in the room would be best, but if I can't, I can live with that I think.

 
Sorry, I just wasn't following your OP. Many zones are wired such that they have in-room volume controls wired to that zone's speakers. What I wasn't following was if each zone was independently wired back to the central location, or if they were daisy-chained from one zone to another. Most all whole-home systems that I have seen are wired as you describe.
 
If you go with a whole-home system such as the C-Series Russound that Pete mentioned above, you can use the MyRussound app to control any zone without having to go back to the central location. You can use/install the Russound C-series without any wired keypads and just use the app... if you did this you could get rid of the in-room VC's and simply provide the Russound an 8-ohm load to each zone. However, doing so you would also need to use the app to control volume.

 

[pete_c]

Many folks on the Homeseer site did purchase the old Russound CA series of zoned amps way back and used Homeseer wireless controls for management of their individual zones.   An early Homeseer plugin (early 2000's) was a virtual Russound KPL and then some (mixed in with meta data stuff).
 
Personally here had a hot in wall volume potentiometer start a fire in a wall during a party one day in the old home in the 1990's.
 
This is where I went to using the Leviton Chopin digital volume controls for a time with a AB8SS (with the cat5e wired with the speakers).  This was before I knew about zoned amps. 

 

[bucko]

You guys might want to look into this stuff
http://www.peerless-av.com/en-us/professional/products/ADS100-B

Also will transmit HDMI

 

[pete_c]

I like it except for the part where I would have to run HV to the in wall receiver. 
 
I know though many times there are no choices but to do this kind of stuff.

 

[drvnbysound]

I like it except for the part where it is it's own separate 2.4GHz wireless network. I would prefer that it actually join my existing network and stream over that. Fortunately, I have hard wires run
 
If it joined my network, which my mobile devices are also on, it would be nice if it also accepted streaming signals to any of the in-wall receivers (a la AirPlay) or if they would accept BT pairing... I think the BT pairing would be more challenging because I don't always stay in a single location and the way that "pairing" works... which is where I'm thinking that streaming via the WiFi network would be preferred which would allow the phone/device to roam a LOT more.

 

[Neurorad]

My house was wired the same way, when I bought it - in-wall volume controls, speaker wires 'home-run' to the family room built-in cabinets.
 
I replaced the VCs with in-wall keypads, and ran a category cable to each keypad.  I also changed the home-run location to a basement mechanical room, and added 5 zones.
 
If you're patient, you can take the opportunity to run new cables each time you paint a room.  The biggest hurdle to running new cables is the painting, IMO.
 
But, I think Sonos would be an excellent choice, using the in-wall VCs.  When you paint the rooms with VCs, you can remove them then.

 

[drvnbysound]

My house was wired the same way, when I bought it - in-wall volume controls, speaker wires 'home-run' to the family room built-in cabinets.
 
I replaced the VCs with in-wall keypads, and ran a category cable to each keypad.  I also changed the home-run location to a basement mechanical room, and added 5 zones.
 
If you're patient, you can take the opportunity to run new cables each time you paint a room.  The biggest hurdle to running new cables is the painting, IMO.
 
But, I think Sonos would be an excellent choice, using the in-wall VCs.  When you paint the rooms with VCs, you can remove them then.

 
What are your conditions that are causing you to have to re-paint after pulling new wire?
 
I've moved a lot of the original wiring that I was able to pre-wire during construction as well as adding a lot of stuff since as well and the only time I've had to re-paint was when I moved our MBR TV up about 2' from the height it was originally installed and wired for.... and not even counting the many other homes that I've done work on as well w/o having to do any paint work.

 

[Neurorad]

I've moved almost all my KPs from VC/switch height to thermostat height, requiring patching/painting. Still need to do this in the MBR, but renovation starting soon; old built-ins for the CRT will be ripped out shortly, new on-wall TV, moving speaker locations, new alarm KP, refinish floor.

I have a great house for retrofitting cables -full attic above the 2nd story, large mechananimal room centrally located in finished basement, garage below kitchen/FR/laundry room. Personally, I've had to paint very little, but for many some patching and painting is required, particularly if one is rushed.

Great room will be painted, and speakers upgraded. RA2 expanded, FR built-ins disappearing as well, new FR on-wall TV; gonna be a PITA, but excited to move forward. As with you, changing TV locations will definitely require some patching/painting.

 

[cinemagicllc]

I have not.
 
 
Yup; it wouldn't be difficult to do this.  (IE: my wired or wireless tabletop touchscreens today do control the Russound hardware and provide whatever metadata that I want)
 
Sounds like it will be a PITA to get this working without more than 4 wires.  A Sonos wireless zoned system will probably be your best choice if you fast and cheap (personally not into this wireless audio stuff).
 
That said you can also a la carte a Sonos server box sans anything else and use it as a music server.  Those 2014 Superbowl Sonos ads were cutesy.
 
There are also now wireless networked audio controllers such that you can just utilize the wires for your speakers and the wireless controller connection to your zoned amp if you want to do it this way.
 
Here pre-wired 4 speaker wires and one cat5e wire to every place where I installed speakers. (12 + 8 over time). 
 
That said started initially with the Leviton Chopin digital volume controls having burnt out (it was a flash and burn inside of the wall) one pot in one wall during a party with loud music.
 
Looking at my Russound legacy keypads wiring (8 wires cat5e) it appears that there are two serial com links plus power to each of the keypads. (such that I can use IR and press buttons).
 
The new Russound wired keypads are two-gang box sized and do much more than the legacy KPL's that I am using.  (buttons, display, IR, aux input, and metadata - which really is a lot for tiny two gang box setup).
 

kp6.jpg

kpsc.jpg

oldkpl.jpg

slk-1.jpg

newrussoundkeypad.jpg

TS3.jpg
 
Just relating to using Russound you can use the wireless C-Series MyRussound App to control a Russound C-Series zoned amplifier. (personally this would be my choice over using a Sonos for everything).
 

myRussoundApp.jpg
 
I am guessing here but it controls the hardware zones stuff (which zone, what volume, what source plus eye candy metadata stuff).  IE: no wires are needed to control the zoned amp.
 
Standard Features
- Remote zone control
- Source metadata
- Content browsing
 
You could DIY some remote wireless network control pad for the Mono Price zoned amp.  IE: put the application on an RPi maybe, connect it serially to the Mono Price Zoned amp and just use serial control for everything.
 
There was / is one MonoPrice Zoned CT amp user that might be doing that today.  Think that Mike also wrote a Homeseer plugin for the zoned amplifier.
 
Look here too on the AVS forum.  Looks like there are two apps. (3)
 

monoprice-amp-1.jpg

monoprice-amp-2.jpg
 

monoprice-amp-3.jpg

 
Such a amazing product like real world imagine...

 

[BaduFamily]

it's a simpler system but the HTD gear would work right away... and you could drop the in-wall keypads.
 
http://www.htd.com/Products/Mid-Level-and-Lync-Systems-Without-Keypads
 
We use their stuff and iTunes from a Mac Mini as host. Stray tablets, iPads, phones as controllers.