Need help figuring out 3way circuit

[electron]

I want to 'UPBify' some of my downstairs switches, and am having trouble figuring this out. I took some pictures showing the 1st switch in the 3way setup, and a picture of the other electrical box which contains the other 3way switch, plus a stand alone switch (which I don't care about). My builder is known to do things backwards, and even had some of the circuits wired wrong when I first moved in, so I am hoping you guys can give me some clues.

http://www.mydotsoft.com/products/my.Gallery/?album=3way

 

[Digger]

I want to 'UPBify' some of my downstairs switches, and am having trouble figuring this out. I took some pictures showing the 1st switch in the 3way setup, and a picture of the other electrical box which contains the other 3way switch, plus a stand alone switch (which I don't care about). My builder is known to do things backwards, and even had some of the circuits wired wrong when I first moved in, so I am hoping you guys can give me some clues.

http://www.mydotsoft.com/products/my.Gallery/?album=3way

Besides the UPB issues the builder did not meet code since he did not ground the switch that is in the plastic box. Also did not follow the strip length for the wires on that switch as well. Not huge issues but I would ground the new switch later.

I am not familiar with UPB so I cant help you there.

 

[WayneW]

It looks like the first switch is simply connected to the 3 wire romex. Therefore two (red & white) are switched "inputs" (aka travelers) from the other switch. The black is the "output" which eventually goes to the load/light (at the second switchbox).

At the second switch the short black from that switch is connected to the neighbor switch, so I bet that is the feed/hot/source. The red & white on this second switch connect to the red & white on the first switch. The black coming out of the romex from the first switch is the load/light.

 

[electron]

Not surprised, he was a real ass, and his guys dont know what the hell they were doing (didn't find this out until it was too late). I guess my main problem is figuring out what is what.

 

[Digger]

It looks like the first switch is simply connected to the 3 wire romex. Therefore two (red & white) are switched "inputs" (aka travelers) from the other switch. The black is the "output" which eventually goes to the load/light (at the second switchbox).

At the second switch the short black from that switch is connected to the neighbor switch, so I bet that is the feed/hot/source. The red & white on this second switch connect to the red & white on the first switch. The black coming out of the romex from the first switch is the load/light.

I think Wayne got it right.....

FYI I believe that most contractors do poor electrical work (I always do my own because of that) and most houses in the USA have tons of code violations. But in the end it is safe or at least reasonably safe so dont sweat it.

 

[electron]

Well the house was pretty much finished by the time we decided to buy it, but next time, I will do everything myself, or at least hire someone who is competent. I learned a lot, but the hard way :/ Thanks for the help guys!

 

[electron]

Ok, I tried installing the switches, and nothing happened I put the master (US11-30W) in the 2nd switch location (area without sheetrock), hooked up as instructed, and put slave in the area that is sheetrocked, and no go. I guess I am having trouble understanding how exactly this circuit is wired.

 

[carry15+1]

I believe you need the master dimmer at location #1. I say this because that apparently is where the LOAD connects to the switch(ed) leg of the master dimmer. You could verify this by connecting 110v directly to the black wire at location #1 and see if the load comes on.

The two switches at the "no description set" location are each fed hot (note black jumper between switches). This would indicate the switch leg will be connected to the other 3-way switch.

Ok, I tried installing the switches, and nothing happened I put the master (US11-30W) in the 2nd switch location (area without sheetrock), hooked up as instructed, and put slave in the area that is sheetrocked, and no go. I guess I am having trouble understanding how exactly this circuit is wired.

 

[carry15+1]

I've looked at the photos again and I'm getting confused. The location that has two switches, with a black jumper between the switches, should be the location of the slave switch. Whatever the other location is, should be the master. Again, you can verify the switch leg with a 110v jumper.

 

[Steve]

Sent you an email with some assumptions and instructions. If they are right, I can post them, just didn't want to put it here yet if assumptions are wrong.

 

[eufreka]

Ok, I tried installing the switches, and nothing happened I put the master (US11-30W) in the 2nd switch location (area without sheetrock), hooked up as instructed, and put slave in the area that is sheetrocked, and no go. I guess I am having trouble understanding how exactly this circuit is wired.

Well, not sure I can add anything but here goes...for an Insteon setup...

One of my original 3-way kitchen lights was wired with the light at the end, I think (it's been a while)...

What I did was (and no one should do this) was undo both switches and re-energize the circuit (when no one was home but me; another no no)...then I tested all the wires to determine what was hot when...

Then I basically "re-wired" it (for insteon) by making the "master" switch (line and load) the "only" switch controlling the light. The former "slave" switch was then wired into a line-only switch (no load) using the "travelers"...then it was linked to the master to create a virtual 3-way instead of an actual 3-way.

It really helped me to draw out the wiring connections on paper so I could visualize what was connected to what (and where).

Maybe that all makes sense, and maybe it doesn't...

 

[Event5]

UPB Virtual 3 ways are wired the same as Insteon, as discribed above. The first thing you must do before wiring any HA 3 way circuit is to determin the Hot wire(s) and the Load wire. With that info you can wire the main switch as a normal HA switch and wire the second switch (virtual slave) with no load. Just the Hot and the neutral connected. Of course the ground wire should be connected if possible.

Dave

 

[Event5]

Dan,
Here is a "real world" view of 3 way wiring created by Brad at Simply Automated. It is a work in progress. Hope it helps.
Dave

 

[eufreka]

Dan,
Here is a "real world" view of 3 way wiring created by Brad at Simply Automated. It is a work in progress. Hope it helps.
Dave

And these are helpful in figuring out which "real world" circuit you may be dealing with:

http://www.the-home-improvement-web.com/in...-way-switch.htm
http://www.askthebuilder.com/141_3_Way_and..._Switches.shtml
http://www.electrical-online.com/wiringdiagrams.htm

 

[electron]

Ok, I took some measurements before I try installing the switches again. I took these measurements at both switches in both states, but I only used the 1st switch to control the state of the light (even when measuring the 2nd switch). These are the results I got, I am hoping it will clear things up (eventho it's a lot of data), maybe someone will notice what I was doing wrong. ON and OFF refer to the state of the lights, not the switch.

1st switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=0V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V

2nd switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V