Need Help w/Water Sensor Connection to Sump Pump Backup

[KHouse]

I've got 2 sump pits in my basement.  One of which contains a pump and a back-up pump/battery back-up, while the other has just one pump.
 
I've been meaning to install a back-up pump + battery on the pit that has just one pump, and finally got around to it.
 
I've installed the Basement Watchdog combo pump (made it easier with just one outlet pipe plumbed there, plus this system had great reviews all over the internet).  http://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/Basement-Watchdog-BW4000-Sump-Pump/p2753.html
 
The instructions note that this system can be hooked up to home alarm and automation systems, so that you can be notified when the back-up pump runs.
 
Below is a pic of the setup on the control box.
 
I'm running an Elk M1 w/ISY 994i.  On the Elk, I'm running the wireless Honeywell.  Also, I've got a few Honeywell 5816 wireless door sensors, converted to water sensors (theres a 2 port block inside the door sensor wired to screws with come out of the bottom of the senor).  I'm thinking I could connect the 5816 door sensor to the sump pump, and use this as a notification...but I'm completely lost as to what part to connect to what part, and what settings to choose in the RP2 when programming that sensor.
 
Any help is MUCH appreciated!
 
Thanks.
 

 
 

 

[Del91574]

5816 will only be able to be connected to a NC device, using less than 3' of wire.

 

[KHouse]

Thanks DELInstallations.
 
Can you please clarify that for me a bit though?  (still very new at all this)
 
Are you saying the 5816 cannot be used with the sump setup to alert me (via the terminals in the picture above)?  If that is the case...how then best would I be able to connect my sump setup to alert my M1 or ISY?
 
I've tried hooking up the 5816 via 1 wire to the NC location, and 1 wire to the common location.  This created an alarm right away, without the backup pump activating (I had the sensor set as "water alarm").
 
The setup in RP that I had was:
 
Definittion:  Water Alarm
Type: 0 = EOL Hardwire/Wireless
 
Under Wireless Setup:
Supervisions: 1 - Normal Supervision
Checked the Option 2 box
Loop: 1
 
*As a side note, does anyone know where I can download a longer/better pdf of the RP manual?  Something that goes into more detail than what came with the M1  or that I can find online?  For example, if I want to learn about what each alarm definition does, and how the M1 reactes to each...how do I learn that?  I've gotta assume there's an in depth manual somewhere out there.

 

[RAL]

I may be wrong about this, but if I understand the directions for the wireless zone settings correctly, you want to check the Option 2 Loop 1 option box only if you are using a Normally Open contact.  If you are using a Normally Closed contact, then you leave it unchecked.   So you can change the setting on this, or change your wiring to use the N.O. terminal on the sump switch.
 
The only Elk RP manual I am aware of is the v1.1 guide available on the Elk web site.  Between that and the M1 Installation Guide, that's pretty much what there is to work with, along with the training videos that you can find on the Elk web site.

 

[Del91574]

RAL, this is incorrect.
 
The 5816 will only function with a NC external contact. Period. (I've installed literally thousands of them). If you need a NO contact you need a 5817 or 5817CB. You can't change how the hardware functions in this case.

The wiring would be NC and C from the external unit to the 5816.
 
I am thinking the zone definition is probably the suspect for the alarm here, it's been a while since I've used the specific ZT, but I want to say anything for flood is a NO circuit, or NC with alarm on short. I don't recall the EOLR programming option, but it used to be either EOLR or RF (specific) but they have changed some things over the years when they started support for the other RF units.
 
Programming options for the RF devices is very detailed in the receiver documentation. Connections and specifics for the transmitters come with them as well. RP programming is essentially the same, just driven via radio boxes and sections within programming, not really difficult.

 

[KHouse]

Thank you both very much for your replies/help.
 
I've left the settings as they are...and it sort of works.
 
The system is 2 pumps that come pre-installed together, to a PVC pipe.  Each pump has 2 floats (main float, and a backup).
 
The system also has a test/silence button on the unit where the water sensors plugs into the NC and C.  The test button tests the backup pump (runs for a few seconds to show its working).  The unit alarms you if the backup pump was activated, and you hit that same button to acknowledge/silence the alarm.
 
If I press the test button, the backup pump runs, and I get nothing (no alarm on my M1).
 
If I activate the backup pump by manually lifting the switch, the backup pump works, and the units alarm beeps (the pump units alarm, not the M1/sensor alarm).
 
If I press the test/silence button after the backup pump has been activated manually, THEN and ONLY THEN, do I get the sensor to go off and signal the M1 to alarm.
 
So the sequence for me to get an M1 alarm is - Backup pump activates > I press the test/silence button on the unit > M1 alarm goes off.
 
It should go off right when the backup pump activates.  That's when the unit senses it goes off and tells the internal alarm to go off.  It should also tell the 5816 to go off.  Instead, it only tells the 5816 to go off after I hit the test/reset button to silence the internal alarm.
 
I know this is sort of outside the scope of the M1 / 5816 so not sure if I can get much help on this here...but hoping someone has an idea why it was tell the 5816 to go off right when the backup starts operating.

 

[Del91574]

Use the short jumper wire and twist it together. Should have a clear alarm system. Open the circuit, if the M1 alarms, then it's not an alarm issue.

From that point, if the M1 alarms with the open circuit, the issue is the pump and/or output from the point on the pump. You would need to look at that vendor's documentation, but something is not correct or the unit has different functionality than what you are seeking to integrate with the M1.
 
Based on what I read, the terminals are NOT going to tell you if the pump is running, but only if there is a trouble condition. (pg 12 "the remote terminal')
 
If you disconnect the system battery, what does the M1 do? If you turn on the backup pump is running, the M1 never alarms? If you remove the AC and run it on battery only, what does the output do? Did you run the backup for long enough? Might be an inhibit feature if the backup runs for only a short amount of time. The unit also might be interlocked via both floats, so it requires both floats to trip before an alarm condition to be annunciated, such as for a stalled or clogged pump.

Move in small steps and don't touch the hush button on the annunciator. Prove the M1 functions, then you're going to need to determine how the pump functions or contact the pump vendor for absolutes.

 

[mikefamig]

I've got 2 sump pits in my basement.  One of which contains a pump and a back-up pump/battery back-up, while the other has just one pump.
 
I've been meaning to install a back-up pump + battery on the pit that has just one pump, and finally got around to it.
 
I've installed the Basement Watchdog combo pump (made it easier with just one outlet pipe plumbed there, plus this system had great reviews all over the internet).  http://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/Basement-Watchdog-BW4000-Sump-Pump/p2753.html
 
The instructions note that this system can be hooked up to home alarm and automation systems, so that you can be notified when the back-up pump runs.
 
Below is a pic of the setup on the control box.
 
I'm running an Elk M1 w/ISY 994i.  On the Elk, I'm running the wireless Honeywell.  Also, I've got a few Honeywell 5816 wireless door sensors, converted to water sensors (theres a 2 port block inside the door sensor wired to screws with come out of the bottom of the senor).  I'm thinking I could connect the 5816 door sensor to the sump pump, and use this as a notification...but I'm completely lost as to what part to connect to what part, and what settings to choose in the RP2 when programming that sensor.
 
Any help is MUCH appreciated!
 
Thanks.
 

So now that you have some time with the basement watchdog how do you like it? Is it noisy? Have you had any problems with it? Does anyone here have any experience with the pumps?
 
I have used Wayne pumps in the past and they are hard to kill but I like the setup and the small size of the watchdog and the features.
 
Mike.