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New ELK M1 planning - New home

Nixer

Member
Hello Everyone. I am new to this forum and been spending a lot of time here to plan my home security system for the new home we are building. The drywall would go in some time next week. I've already completed most of my low voltage wiring except alarm.
 
I'd like to get my alarm wiring done over the weekend.
Here is what I'm thinking. Please let me know your suggestions.
 
1. 6 combo smoke/co2 detectors - daisy chained to one zone - Do I need a 22k EOLR? I'm thinking about getting System Sensor COSMO-4W. Do I need COSMOD-4w for this setup? Wire size: 22/4 stranded
 
2. WIndows surface magnetic contacts: We have some wood windows in the front of the house without any flat face on the inside to mount the contacts. Will try to add some pictures. Would Tane Pill Mini contacts work? -Wire size: 22/2 stranded
 
3. 2 Heat detectors - one in garage and one in attic. Do they go in single zone or daisy chained? - Looking at System Sensor Fixed Temp/Rate-of-Rise Single-Circuit Mechanical Heat Detector 5602. Is it a good choice? : 18/4 FPLP??
 
4. Motion sensors and Glass breakers each on its independent zone. - Wire: 22/4 stranded - recommendation please.
 
Here is the list I have with wiring info. I'm think I have too many glass breakers and motion sensors in my design. I will add some pictures and floor plan soon. still trying to figure out how to add pictures here..
 
 
 

RAL

Senior Member
Welcome!
 
You won't be able to add pictures until you've made a few more posts.
 
1. With the M1 and 2-wire smoke detectors on zone 16, you use an 820 ohm EOL resistor.  But if you are using 4-wire smokes, then you would use a 2.2k EOLR.   If you are going to use System Sensor smokes with a COSMODxW module, the COSMODxW will connect to the M1 as a 4-wire smoke detector.   You can then use 2-wire COSMO-2W detectors with a COSMOD2W module, or COSMO-4W detectors and the COSMOD4W module.  The 2-wire smokes are easier to wire, as you don't need EOL relays for power supervision.
 
Whichever ones you choose, use fire-rated wire.
 
2. I haven't used the Tane pill contacts, but they seem to be a popular choice for a small, unobtrusive surface mount contact.
 
3. You can put the heat detectors on separate zones or daisy chain them. 
 
4. Yes, keep the motion detectors and glass break detectors on separate zones if you can.  Makes it easier to isolate problems due to false alarms.   Many folks like the Bosch Blue Line Gen2 motion detectors. 
 
For glass break detectors, I used the Visonic Glasstech detectors.  They seem hard to find these days and may not be in production anymore. Not sure what I would use instead. Other choices are the Honeywell Flexguard and GE/Interlogix Shatterpro. The Honeywell units have a better reputation, from what some of the pro's who post here say, than the Shatterpro.
 

lanbrown

Active Member
RAL said:
For glass break detectors, I used the Visonic Glasstech detectors.  They seem hard to find these days and may not be in production anymore. Not sure what I would use instead. Other choices are the Honeywell Flexguard and GE/Interlogix Shatterpro. The Honeywell units have a better reputation, from what some of the pro's who post here say, than the Shatterpro.
 
The Visonic Glasstech appears to have been discontinued.
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
Welcome!
 
You won't be able to add pictures until you've made a few more posts.
 
1. With the M1 and 2-wire smoke detectors on zone 16, you use an 820 ohm EOL resistor.  But if you are using 4-wire smokes, then you would use a 2.2k EOLR.   If you are going to use System Sensor smokes with a COSMODxW module, the COSMODxW will connect to the M1 as a 4-wire smoke detector.   You can then use 2-wire COSMO-2W detectors with a COSMOD2W module, or COSMO-4W detectors and the COSMOD4W module.  The 2-wire smokes are easier to wire, as you don't need EOL relays for power supervision.
 
Whichever ones you choose, use fire-rated wire.
 
2. I haven't used the Tane pill contacts, but they seem to be a popular choice for a small, unobtrusive surface mount contact.
 
3. You can put the heat detectors on separate zones or daisy chain them. 
 
4. Yes, keep the motion detectors and glass break detectors on separate zones if you can.  Makes it easier to isolate problems due to false alarms.   Many folks like the Bosch Blue Line Gen2 motion detectors. 
 
For glass break detectors, I used the Visonic Glasstech detectors.  They seem hard to find these days and may not be in production anymore. Not sure what I would use instead. Other choices are the Honeywell Flexguard and GE/Interlogix Shatterpro. The Honeywell units have a better reputation, from what some of the pro's who post here say, than the Shatterpro.
 
I see system sensor 2 wires and 4 wires mentioned here a lot... that's the only reason I'm considering one of these. My home is already wired by the electrician for smokes so I am thinking about getting only 2-3 smokes. This is a 1 story home. Any recommendation on other brand smokes that can be daisy chained with/without EOLR?
 
I've ordered some Bosch Blue Line Gen2 motion detectors. Haven't found decent priced glass break sensors yet. I need about 8 of them.
 
The anderson 400 series I use in my home has an uneven design on the inside so it's kinda difficult to mount the surface contacts so not sure if the Tane Pill ones would work. I will post pictures in 2 days once the restriction is removed. Anyone installed window sensors on these windows, please chime in.
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
I see system sensor 2 wires and 4 wires mentioned here a lot... that's the only reason I'm considering one of these. My home is already wired by the electrician for smokes so I am thinking about getting only 2-3 smokes. This is a 1 story home. Any recommendation on other brand smokes that can be daisy chained with/without EOLR?
 
Interlogix and DSC also offer smoke detectors. 
 
4-wire smoke detectors always require an EOL relay.  2-wire smoke detectors don't. 
 
Note that if you are connecting 2-wire smoke detectors directly to the M1 on zone 16, you need to use smoke detectors that are certified for use with the M1.   See page 6 of the M1 manual for a list.
 

TrojanHorse

Active Member
Experts - 22/4 for motions and glass breaks seems a little thin? I thought 18/4 was recommended?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

RAL

Senior Member
TrojanHorse said:
Experts - 22/4 for motions and glass breaks seems a little thin? I thought 18/4 was recommended? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
22/4 is fine for motion detectors and glass break detectors.  Both draw low current and a heavier gauge wire would be overkill.
 
One place you want to use 18 gauge wire is for smoke detectors.

[Edit]:
A reason you might upsize to #18 would be if you had an extremely long run from the panel to the detector, say many 100s of feet, or you had dozens of detectors on a long daisy chain.
 

Nixer

Member
Yes, I am running only 22/4 to motion sensors and glass break sensors.
I was able to get some Bosch Blue Gen2 motion sensors but still having trouble finding decent glass break sensors.
 
If I go with 4 wire smokes, I understand I need EOLR but do I need to worry about compatibility with ELK M1 or any brand would work? 
 
What door contact sensors do you all recommend to use with Iron door? We have  2 door 6'x8' front door and not sure what contact sensors to use with it? Also I have 2 solid wood back doors.. I want to go with recessed contacts as I don't have to worry about leak warranty etc like windows.
 
Thanks for all your suggestion and guidance. 
 

Nixer

Member
Here is the list of security items I have planned so far. I still need to add heat sensors.
 
I still think I have too many sensors for a 4800 sq ft single story home.. 
 

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RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
Yes, I am running only 22/4 to motion sensors and glass break sensors.
I was able to get some Bosch Blue Gen2 motion sensors but still having trouble finding decent glass break sensors.
 
If I go with 4 wire smokes, I understand I need EOLR but do I need to worry about compatibility with ELK M1 or any brand would work? 
 
What door contact sensors do you all recommend to use with Iron door? We have  2 door 6'x8' front door and not sure what contact sensors to use with it? Also I have 2 solid wood back doors.. I want to go with recessed contacts as I don't have to worry about leak warranty etc like windows.
 
Thanks for all your suggestion and guidance. 
 
With 4-wire smoke detectors, you can use any brand with any alarm panel since they connect to normal zone inputs. 
 
2-wire smokes are different because they use the same pair of wires to provide power and signal an alarm condition, so they need to be compatible with the alarm panel's special smoke detector zone inputs.
 
For a metal door, if you choose a recessed magnetic contact, you need to choose one that isolates it from the surrounding metal of the door.
Here's one example.  Or, you can use a roller type contact.
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
Here is the list of security items I have planned so far. I still need to add heat sensors.
 
I still think I have too many sensors for a 4800 sq ft single story home.. 
 
The number of sensors adds up. I have over 30 zones on a smaller house than yours.
 
If you want to cut down on the number, consider limiting the number of motion detectors to just the key areas an intruder is likely to pass through, and the likely target rooms, like the master bedroom rather than every bedroom, and the living room or family room (where you might have a large screen TV).   You could put glass break detectors on the first floor only rather than on all floors, since that's the most likely point of entry.   For a large room, like the great room, you may need more than one glass break detector.  They work best when pointing at the windows, rather than off to the side.  If you have windows on more than one wall, you may need several.
 
In your wire list, I would run Cat5e cable to the keypad locations rather than 22/4.  The M1 needs to have the keypads and other data bus devices in a daisy chain, and Cat5e along with the M1DBH makes that easy to do.
 
Also run an extra wire pair for a speaker at or near the keypad locations for voice announcements.  18 gauge wire is a reasonable choice.
 
If you want to get carried away and add even more zones, add some water detectors in the kitchen, bathrooms and around the water heater and perhaps in the basement (if you have one) to detect leaks and floods.
 
http://www.grisk.com/images/product_pdfs/liquid_detection/2600_12volt_dc_water_sensor.pdf
http://www.grisk.com/images/product_pdfs/liquid_detection/water_moccasin.pdf
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
The number of sensors adds up. I have over 30 zones on a smaller house than yours.
 
If you want to cut down on the number, consider limiting the number of motion detectors to just the key areas an intruder is likely to pass through, and the likely target rooms, like the master bedroom rather than every bedroom, and the living room or family room (where you might have a large screen TV).   You could put glass break detectors on the first floor only rather than on all floors, since that's the most likely point of entry.   For a large room, like the great room, you may need more than one glass break detector.  They work best when pointing at the windows, rather than off to the side.  If you have windows on more than one wall, you may need several.
 
In your wire list, I would run Cat5e cable to the keypad locations rather than 22/4.  The M1 needs to have the keypads and other data bus devices in a daisy chain, and Cat5e along with the M1DBH makes that easy to do.
 
Also run an extra wire pair for a speaker at or near the keypad locations for voice announcements.  18 gauge wire is a reasonable choice.
 
If you want to get carried away and add even more zones, add some water detectors in the kitchen, bathrooms and around the water heater and perhaps in the basement (if you have one) to detect leaks and floods.
 
http://www.grisk.com/images/product_pdfs/liquid_detection/2600_12volt_dc_water_sensor.pdf
http://www.grisk.com/images/product_pdfs/liquid_detection/water_moccasin.pdf
 
 
RAL,
ok cat5e in daisy chain and speaker wires from keypad to speaker location. I guess it's just single speaker or stereo? 
I don't have a basement but I have plenty of 22/2 and 22/4 wires that I can run for water detectors. I've ordered 18/4 FPLP wires for heat detectors as well. I am adding one in garage and one in the attic. My house will use foam insulation so I expect the attic to be not too hot.
 
I have a total of 10 motion sensors, 8 glass break sensors, 16 window contacts and 4 door sensors. 
 
Onto the metal door recessed magnetic contacts, do I need to drill a hole on both door and the frame? I was thinking about getting the surface contact sensors just like windows but I don't think that will work. 
And the roller type is a single piece that would go in the frame so just one place to drill I guess.
 
4 wire glass break sensor: Sentrol Interlogix GE 5812-RND ShatterPro Round Acoustic Glassbreak Sensor Is this one 4 wires and is it any good?
Thank you so much for all your inputs
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
RAL,
ok cat5e in daisy chain and speaker wires from keypad to speaker location. I guess it's just single speaker or stereo? 
I don't have a basement but I have plenty of 22/2 and 22/4 wires that I can run for water detectors. I've ordered 18/4 FPLP wires for heat detectors as well. I am adding one in garage and one in the attic. My house will use foam insulation so I expect the attic to be not too hot.
 
I have a total of 10 motion sensors, 8 glass break sensors, 16 window contacts and 4 door sensors. 
 
Onto the metal door recessed magnetic contacts, do I need to drill a hole on both door and the frame? I was thinking about getting the surface contact sensors just like windows but I don't think that will work. 
And the roller type is a single piece that would go in the frame so just one place to drill I guess.
 
4 wire glass break sensor: Sentrol Interlogix GE 5812-RND ShatterPro Round Acoustic Glassbreak Sensor Is this one 4 wires and is it any good?
Thank you so much for all your inputs
The Elk's voice announcements are mono, so a single speaker is all you need.
 
For water detectors, I placed them under the washing machine, dishwasher, and water heater.   Also in the cabinets under sinks.  Others here have even placed them in walls around bathtubs and showers and under the floor near toilets.  It all comes down to how paranoid you want to be.  :)
 
The next step after detecting a leak is what to do about it.   Some folks install water shutoff valves, like the Elk WSV2.
 
With recessed magnetic door contacts you need to drill a hole both in the door and the frame.   With metal doors and frames, the problem is that the metal will shield the contact from the field of the magnet if you use a contact that isn't designed for metal doors.  The contacts designed for metal doors get around the problem by creating a gap between the door/frame and the magnet/contact.
 
If you use a surface mount contact, the metal is less of a problem since it sits outside the metal. With the roller type contact, you're correct - only one hole is needed.
 
I only have experience with the Visonic Glasstechs.  One of the pros who posts here, DELInstallations, has said in the past that he stays away from the Shatterpro detectors as they tend to have more false alarms.   At the time I was doing my system, he recommended the Visonics, so that's what I went with.
 
If you cross the Shatterpro off the list, that leaves the Honeywell or perhaps DSC.  I haven't seen much discussion about the DSC detectors, so I'd probably go with the Honeywell.  
 
All the glass break detectors I've seen are 4-wire detectors.  2 for power, 2 for the contact.
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
The Elk's voice announcements are mono, so a single speaker is all you need.
 
For water detectors, I placed them under the washing machine, dishwasher, and water heater.   Also in the cabinets under sinks.  Others here have even placed them in walls around bathtubs and showers and under the floor near toilets.  It all comes down to how paranoid you want to be.  :)
 
The next step after detecting a leak is what to do about it.   Some folks install water shutoff valves, like the Elk WSV2.
 
With recessed magnetic door contacts you need to drill a hole both in the door and the frame.   With metal doors and frames, the problem is that the metal will shield the contact from the field of the magnet if you use a contact that isn't designed for metal doors.  The contacts designed for metal doors get around the problem by creating a gap between the door/frame and the magnet/contact.
 
If you use a surface mount contact, the metal is less of a problem since it sits outside the metal. With the roller type contact, you're correct - only one hole is needed.
 
I only have experience with the Visonic Glasstechs.  One of the pros who posts here, DELInstallations, has said in the past that he stays away from the Shatterpro detectors as they tend to have more false alarms.   At the time I was doing my system, he recommended the Visonics, so that's what I went with.
 
If you cross the Shatterpro off the list, that leaves the Honeywell or perhaps DSC.  I haven't seen much discussion about the DSC detectors, so I'd probably go with the Honeywell.  
 
All the glass break detectors I've seen are 4-wire detectors.  2 for power, 2 for the contact.
RAL,
Thank you! I ordered some FG1625SN glass break sensors online and the instruction manual shows only 2 wire connectors. Can someone tell me if these are really 2 wire sensors?
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
RAL,
Thank you! I ordered some FG1625SN glass break sensors online and the instruction manual shows only 2 wire connectors. Can someone tell me if these are really 2 wire sensors?
 
I'm afraid I may have sent you astray when I said all the glass break detectors I've seen are 4-wire.  Honeywell makes a line of addressable detectors that all connect together on a 2-wire loop.  They call this system V-Plex. These are usually used in commercial/industrial environments where a lot of detectors are needed and creating a simple loop saves a lot of wiring effort.
 
Unfortunately, you won't be able to use them with the M1.  You'd want the plain FG1625 instead.
 
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