New Home Need Ideas

[jskibo]

Happy New Year!

Haven't been on here in quite some time and haven't really kept up, sut I have a few questions if anyone is willing to toss some ideas my way

We are building a new home in Michigan and I'm looking to put in some Lighting Control, Automation and Security. Unfortunately our builder is an asshat and the most he will allow outside the "options book" is a few CAT 5 runs to the bedrooms at $50 a run. The house is a two story, four bedroom (3400 Sq Ft) on a basement, with a three car (two door) garage.

Previously I built a house in Delaware at about 6000 sq ft finished. The builder put a chase in the basement to the attic (same deal, no homeowner wiring or outside subs) so I had to pull miles of cable to install my Elk M1, security cam and UPB lighting system. Elk worked great, UPB was pretty good, Security cam was not so hot.

So for the new house:

Security:

Would like to go with ELK again if possible (unless there is something better now).
Builder installs a First Alert 168C, 2 keypad, door contact, siren, 1 motion, but wants $575 as an option. Seems a bit high if I'm just stripping it down to the wiring, but if I can re-use most of it then might be worth the pulling wire frustration.
Keypads needed for Bedroom, front entry and garage. Liked the proximity sensor and fobs I had with the old system, any ideas here of something even better?
Wife really wants the lower windows covered as well, since I have no easy way to wire, would wirelss be an OK choice?
Need to cover garage doors, but access there is easy....

Cameras:

Would like something to record motion past certain evening hours or when the alarm is armed if possible. Would like to cover front door (covered porch across the front), back deck and door, and pool area as well as inside the garage.
Cameras need reasonable night vision capability and something that is easy to wire since I have to pre-wire access.
DVR or PC Card based DVR?
Wife wants ability to check in on the web (live video as well as captured motion events) since the girls are home alone at times.

Lighting:

I liked the UPB (had about 35 SA switches in various configs) Should I go back to UPB, or would Z-wave be a better choice? Anything more efficient?

Would be controlling Single lights in Living, Dining, Familiy rooms downstairs as well as multiple (Pendant, Overhead and under cabinet) in kitchen. Garage lights, inside and out, front and rear porch and deck, 4 bedrooms, 2 bath and gameroom upstairs.

Automation:

I had a copy of Homeseer (pre 2.0) and used to own a CQC license (never did much with it).

Idea here is lighting, cam and security control from PC's in and out of the house, Android phones while away as well. Thermostat as well. WOuld eventually like to move up to LCD touchscreens in the house. Home theater and Bar will be going in the basement. Kids all have Dell Zino's hooked to Projectors and TV's in their rooms and movies / music will stream from a HP MediaSmart server (currently do it that way here).

I liked the previous Elk Install and all the talking I had it doing, but that freaked out the ex wife

What software would be suitable? I don't mind playing around a bit to get things customized, just don't want it to turn into a programming nightmare. Not real interested in spending $1000 on the software part either. Needs to run on a windows based machine (win7 preferably). The ability to expand either natively or through "modules" is needed as well (like possible pool control when we build that part).

Any ideas would be great and we would be thankful for any help!

John

 

[Rupp]

If you liked the Elk then stick with it but if you are going to use a software based control system like HomeSeer then you could save some money and go with a DSC security system. The UPB is still as good as it gets but Z-Wave does offer more options like locks, temp/humidity measuring, power monitoring, lighting, and much more so a combination of UPB and Z-Wave is a good choice. Get a good DVR camera based system and you will not regret it. Save some money on the security system and spend it on cameras. Here's an older video of the HomeSeer Android client and it's been much imporved since the initial release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3itu7S7B1AQ

 

[tmbrown97]

I'd have to say, you should be able to get most of what you want run - even if the builder is a DB. Normally the guy in the sales office says no to everything, but a few hundred $$$ cash slipped to the electrical contractor, and you should be able to get anything prewired, and as long as it passes code, nobody should care.

Your best bet is to opt for prewiring if possible for security and others, without them putting their own system in - but if they must, opt for something either compatible, or that can just work with your HA package (it need not be an Elk if you have other software running it all - though I love my elk).

For lighting, UPB seems like a better standard to me - but that's personal opinion... ZWave certainly has a lot of options and is pretty impressive; especially with it being available in so many retail spaces now, and in so many products. I'd go with UPB for lighting and the ability to do ZWave for locks, tstats, etc.

Wireless is always an option, and one that many must live by... there's an initial investment to be able to support wireless, but once it's there, you can handle fobs and the like; and each new sensor is about $30-$40... and you can add water sensors, contact sensors, etc at will (think gun safe, liquor cabinet, etc - without running a new wire).

Software you may want to look at from scratch... CQC's owner seems to be going through a perpetual nervous breakdown and can't figure out if he's still in business, going open source, going all DIY, all Pro, or just closing his doors... Elve is a strong brand-new player in the market - and the others I'm sure have changed in some way or another - there's a great sticky on here with comparisons of each.

I'm zero help on Cameras... because what I want and what I'm willing to spend have yet to come into any sort of alignment.

 

[Neurorad]

Work2Play - so true on the cameras.

Find a way to get the cables you want.

Wireless batteries fail, and need replacing.

 

[jskibo]

If you liked the Elk then stick with it but if you are going to use a software based control system like HomeSeer then you could save some money and go with a DSC security system. The UPB is still as good as it gets but Z-Wave does offer more options like locks, temp/humidity measuring, power monitoring, lighting, and much more so a combination of UPB and Z-Wave is a good choice. Get a good DVR camera based system and you will not regret it. Save some money on the security system and spend it on cameras. Here's an older video of the HomeSeer Android client and it's been much imporved since the initial release.

Thanks, I picked up a few Z-wave devices off the Radio Shack sale to play with. A Trane T-stat and 10 switches. If they work great then I will use them in select areas to build a stronger network. Interested in the Kwickset of other Z-Wave motorized deadbolt as well. Have a couple latchkey kids that seem to lose keys a bit too much. Would also like status when they get home.

I never looked at the DSC alarms before. I suppose if I am doing an HS based system I could save a few there. Does DSC support wired and wireless? What wireless devices (i.e. GE Crystal based or???)

Any advice on good DVR boxes for 8 or so inputs? I was looking at some of the software ability to define different zones of motion detection overlay on the video feed. Do the DVR's have that feature? (sorry a bit of newb and my last camera system / pc card was a failure).

 

[programmergeek]

For a DVR I have been using a Geo vision card in a pc. Works great and I can do analog as well as IP cameras. I would recomend that and then you can also use that pc for other things. One thing you forgot is whole house audio. Are you wireing aby rooms with speakers for a Nuvo system or similar.

Thanks, I picked up a few Z-wave devices off the Radio Shack sale to play with. A Trane T-stat and 10 switches. If they work great then I will use them in select areas to build a stronger network. Interested in the Kwickset of other Z-Wave motorized deadbolt as well. Have a couple latchkey kids that seem to lose keys a bit too much. Would also like status when they get home.

I never looked at the DSC alarms before. I suppose if I am doing an HS based system I could save a few there. Does DSC support wired and wireless? What wireless devices (i.e. GE Crystal based or???)

Any advice on good DVR boxes for 8 or so inputs? I was looking at some of the software ability to define different zones of motion detection overlay on the video feed. Do the DVR's have that feature? (sorry a bit of newb and my last camera system / pc card was a failure).

 

[jskibo]

For a DVR I have been using a Geo vision card in a pc. Works great and I can do analog as well as IP cameras. I would recomend that and then you can also use that pc for other things. One thing you forgot is whole house audio. Are you wireing aby rooms with speakers for a Nuvo system or similar.

What PC specs would be best for that? I had a lot of issues with my 2006 era PC Card CCTV solution. System would freeze all the time and quality was real poor. If I ran multiple things on that PC I would guess it would need to be more robust than minimum requirements. Do you have the ability to stream that via the web? Might be interested in being able to look in on the kids or the back yard during the day.

What Cameras are you using? (more important, if you had to do it again would you use the same ones?)

No whole house audio planned. Basement will get a theater and a bar / game area and will have audio to those areas as well as backyard (planned pool area).....Still not sure why I need a pool in Michigan for the 2 months its warm enough to use, but the kids assure me its a requirement

 

[apostolakisl]

An item soon to be introduced is the ISY with full Elk integration as well as UPB. It is a great little tool for running your HA. I use it with my Insteon and Elk at present and really like it. UPB is in beta as I am told and full Elk support keeps being promised any time now.

As far as your cameras, the only thing you need to consider now is whether you are using analog or digital. The question is CAT5 or analog wire. Be sure to include a source of electricity to the cameras. I suggest using IP cameras as that is likely to be the most supported for the next decade or so. With CAT 5 wire you won't need to deal with the pricier and uglier wireless models. You may be able to run them with PoE as well.

 

[Fiasco]

I'd have to say, you should be able to get most of what you want run - even if the builder is a DB. Normally the guy in the sales office says no to everything, but a few hundred $$$ cash slipped to the electrical contractor, and you should be able to get anything prewired, and as long as it passes code, nobody should care.

A few hundred? For the electrical contractor to do a automation prewire? Or for the EC to let some other unlicensed person do it on their permit and Insurance?

Neither sounds likely.

 

[tmbrown97]

A few hundred? For the electrical contractor to do a automation prewire? Or for the EC to let some other unlicensed person do it on their permit and Insurance?

Neither sounds likely.

I wasn't suggesting he was going to get 10 miles of extra cabling for that price; merely that if he only needs to add a few basics, when you get closer to the guys actually on-site they tend to be more willing to bend the rules. They should have a package for the extra cat5, and they generally have a security pre-wire package... running a few specialty wires is likely not out of the question though as long as you talk to the right guy and make it worth it to him.

 

[Del91574]

Unless the construction dictates you can't run wire after the fact or have limited access to areas, I'd forgo the panel/rough in and do it after the fact, just spend money if the AHJ and builder allow you to put conduits in for basement/attic runs and to areas you can't get to easily. While not as nice as having all the wiring in place and turn key, a decent retrofitter or LV contractor can get the majority of wiring in and just as good 95% of the times as a prewire, just really depends on how the house is put together.

 

[Fiasco]

Unless the construction dictates you can't run wire after the fact or have limited access to areas, I'd forgo the panel/rough in and do it after the fact, just spend money if the AHJ and builder allow you to put conduits in for basement/attic runs and to areas you can't get to easily. While not as nice as having all the wiring in place and turn key, a decent retrofitter or LV contractor can get the majority of wiring in and just as good 95% of the times as a prewire, just really depends on how the house is put together.

It costs considerably more to fish walls after the fact then it does to prewire.

 

[tmbrown97]

Unless the construction dictates you can't run wire after the fact or have limited access to areas, I'd forgo the panel/rough in and do it after the fact, just spend money if the AHJ and builder allow you to put conduits in for basement/attic runs and to areas you can't get to easily. While not as nice as having all the wiring in place and turn key, a decent retrofitter or LV contractor can get the majority of wiring in and just as good 95% of the times as a prewire, just really depends on how the house is put together.

No offense, but this is useless advice. The OP should try to get the wiring in during the build stage - if he can't, then he's stuck with wireless/retrofit options. There's never a case where a retrofit contractor can come close to what can be done during construction.

DELInstallations - this is a DIY forum... Learn your audience... Nobody is here to compete with you... they're here because they have questions about their home installations. These are quite often best effort systems that include fire, flood, and burglary... and maybe they aren't White House worthy, but chances are, with the right guidance, they'll still be better than 98% of the world in their non-connected tract homes.

If you can't keep your advice relevant, you're not going to help - you're just going to scare your audience away.

 

[jskibo]

Well there is no chance of getting the builder to bend. Just for a few CAT 5 runs to bedrooms he wants $50 a run and thats a bare end in the basement. I asked for a quote for security pre-wire and was given $1275 for 4 doors, 2 keypad wire locations and 3 smokes (same price as he wants for that plus the Panel and the keypads, in other words, "Take all his junk or pay the same price for wire only").

Guess I will be looking for a good LV or electrical guy in the Grand Rapids, MI area for a retrofit install.

 

[rismoney]

I don't know where your house is being built, but I am building a home too, in a NY suburb and would kill to pay $50 a run. $90/HR for CAT5 runs is where I am at. My builder has gone from nice to ruthless in less than 2 weeks time, and extortion is his MO, so I know how you feel. My dream house project has been anything but a dream.

I needed to put together an entire package with my builder because otherwise it would cost $20k with his #s, and I am at around $8000 which I think is redic... It includes 2800 for alarm - 3 doors, 3 keypads (2 entry and BR), 7 smokes, 10 windows (breaks,sensors), 3 motion, etc. $2400 for audio wiring, family room and master 5.1channel, outdoor speakers, kitchen, dr. Includes 5 tv cables, 8 internet, and 8 phone. (cat5), plus some conduits. Then about another 2500 for the Omni controller, modules, some programming, dealer s/w, etc.

Everything I've heard regarding retrofit after is not a good idea. You will cut your nose off to spite your face. While it hurts a lot more to pay the builder another cent, it is better than them coming in after with the sheetrock saws. It is an unparalled install with the walls open.

Will I get $8000k back for this investment? probably not. Will it bring me extreme happines and comfort and keep my family safe?
I think so. My recommendation on tackling this: Write down every single thing you can dream of wanting and submit it to the builder. When he comes back with the crazy ass #s, pull off everything but your absolute requirements, and have him readjust.
Then pay cash.