New solar installation, now x10 line noise problems

[RAM]

I got a 5 kw solar panel setup fired up last week and now I'm seeing my normally well behaved X10 setup randomly turning on devices when the panels are producing any solar power. I'm sure it's line noise being introduced by the solar installation (probably the micro-inverters) that is being seen by my devices as a turn-on signal. I know it's not a clean X10 signal as Homeseer isn't showing that the deices should be on.
Anyone have a solar installation and X10 and are you seeing anything similar? 
If so have you found out what to do to lessen/eliminate the problem. 
I contected Jeff Volp and he suggested the X10 XPF 220v line noise filters. But since my array puts out more that 20 amps, one 20 amp filter won't cut it.

 

[LarrylLix]

With incandescent bulbs becoming obsolete and/or banned and LEDs coming into existence your X10 may be on the way out. I believe Jeff Volp produces a signal booster that may help somewhat. Some swear by it.
 
I have almost replaced al my X10 gadgets with Insteon and a ISY994i HA box that seams immune to my 7.2kw system. It supports my few X10 units I have left and Insteon stuff very well although over 100' circuits are unreliable with X10. I have no Zwave on this system. X10 is hard to filter for by it's very nature of existing where the zero crossing is.

 

[RAM]

With incandescent bulbs becoming obsolete and/or banned and LEDs coming into existence your X10 may be on the way out. I believe Jeff Volp produces a signal booster that may help somewhat. Some swear by it.
 
I have almost replaced al my X10 gadgets with Insteon and a ISY994i HA box that seams immune to my 7.2kw system. It supports my few X10 units I have left and Insteon stuff very well although over 100' circuits are unreliable with X10. I have no Zwave on this system. X10 is hard to filter for by it's very nature of existing where the zero crossing is.

My problem isn't signal strength, I have no problems turning stuff on or off when I WANT to. My system worked fine before solar, it's the random turn ons since that are the problem.

 

[LarrylLix]

X10 doesn't provide enough signal power to overcome a little bit of inverter noise. More signal power gets around that problem until another solution is used.
 
I always found that random turn-ons where a result of X10 poor rf technology. The conversions bridges assume some X10 rf is valid and then re-broadcast it on the powerlines as a valid signal. X10 powerline stuff didn't operate at random, from my 20 years of experience with it. Transmissions are fairly secure. They may not be received but what is was always correct.
 
What is the rated noise spec on your inverters? Can some toroids (ferrous donuts) be placed on the interconnecting wiring between solar and house?
 
Trouble is they usually spec the distortion while in parallel with a grid supplied supply. I guess with micro-inverters they would have to. I use one central inverter and the noise specs are fairly low. Insteon repeats signals  with every device repeating in unison to strengthen signal levels and avoid most of this. Some still have fixable troubles as all systems do.

 

[ano]

X-10 is a very low-tech technology using tones on the powerline to define ones and zeros.  Most X-10 devices use a quite low-tech (cheap) method to detect these tones, and they are very prone to false triggering.
 
A filter like this may work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PZZ01-Passive-Blocking-Filter-X10-Pro-/170574704982
 
but no guarantees. Otherwise you might want to start thinking about replacing the X-10 with Zigbee or Z-Wave.

 

[RAM]

What is the rated noise spec on your inverters? Can some toroids (ferrous donuts) be placed on the interconnecting wiring between solar and house?

I've got a couple ferrite donuts on order, they should be here Saturday. I found a reference to a specific one in their website manual. I hope they help.

 

[pete_c]

I am reposting here what I posted on Homeseer.  Note that I haven't paid attention to my X10 stuff as I have migrated mostly to using UPB.  The X10 stuff using Jeff's original XTB (+CM11A) and newer TW-525 dual phased device plus plugin device has worked fine for me.  I did forget to mention (because I never look anymore) that I had from the get go installed a PZZ01.  It was a PITA for me to install it here because I pulled the meter to get to disconnecting the mains from the electrical bus in the panel which really only took five minutes to do.
 
For a time though did create devices in Homeseer of the X10 that was coming in randomly powerlinewise (not RF wise) doing stuff out of kilter.  It was scheduled and regular and not random.
 
I also had similiar issues a few years back when I was using the Insteon PLM for X-10. I did start with Insteon stuff during the salad days.  It seemed a bit too sensitive and I would get random (not really) X10 signals turning on and off devices.

 

[LarrylLix]

It was a PITA for me to install it here because I pulled the meter to get to disconnecting the mains from the electrical bus in the panel which really only took five minutes to do.

I did mine alive. Put on my rubber gloves and flash glasses but then I worked for the utility. Neither method is advised now-a-days as they are under lock or seal by the utility (always were) but the smart meters usually have detectors in them informing the utility if the meter has been tilted.
 
Best would be to call the utility to pull your meter for about 5 minutes while they wait. I don't use this unit for my X10 or my Insteon. I have one that fits into a receptacle box that does both quite well. Some couplers can weaken Insteon signals although with Insteon it doesn't matter as it's rf com system can  pass the signals also.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; and having the correctly sized hex key to loosen the wires on the bus bar.  It is a size typically not utilized for regular stuff.   IE: it wouldn't be a regular tool kept in the kitchen "tools" drawer.
 
As Larry states it is not something advised to play with and can be detrimental to your health (life saftey issue) should you fat finger something live with your bare fingers and hands.

 

[IndyMike]

I would think that the break frequency for the ferrites would be well above the X10 120KHz frequency.
 
The PZZ01 blocking filter that Ano linked to would seem to be a good fit given the amount of current that you are dealing with.  It's also a pretty reasonable price compared with years ago when X10 was common.
 
 

I've got a couple ferrite donuts on order, they should be here Saturday. I found a reference to a specific one in their website manual. I hope they help.

 

[RAM]

I would think that the break frequency for the ferrites would be well above the X10 120KHz frequency.
 
The PZZ01 blocking filter that Ano linked to would seem to be a good fit given the amount of current that you are dealing with.  It's also a pretty reasonable price compared with years ago when X10 was common.
 
 

I got the ferrites installed yesterday morning and only saw 1 random device turn-on all day vs 6-12 in a typical day. I'm going to try increasingly the number of turns of wire where it passes through the ferrite core. That's supposed to improve it's effectiveness.

 

[pete_c]

Curious what specfically did you order (ferrites - values - placement) to solve you issue. 
 
What you did will help others cuz I know there a few folks still using X10 today.  (IE: I still use it).

 

[BLH]

Jeff Volp also use to made a Echelon Smart Meter Rejection Kit for the large concentrator data signals being sent back to the power company. That caused some X10 setup to act strange. It used big ferrites as part of the kit.
Was discontinued. I believe it was not a popular kit. As only certain systems that used the power line frequency {where a few different ones} causing issues.

 

[RAM]

Curious what specfically did you order (ferrites - values - placement) to solve you issue. 
 
What you did will help others cuz I know there a few folks still using X10 today.  (IE: I still use it).

I'll document everything soon - busy day tomorrow, babysitting a furnace and AC install at my son's house and replacing a water heater at a rental place I own.

 

[RAM]

Turns out the ferrite cores did not stop the noise, only lessened it a bit. Per Jeff Volp's advice I installed 4 XPF filters (needed 2 in parallel per powerline leg to get needed amerage capacity) and have not seen an unexpected device turn on since. Thank goodness!!!