Newbie starting a big remodel

enodog

New Member
Well, I have been waiting a long time to have enough money for a remodel in my 100 year old house. Most of the funds are going into the actual 1600 sq foot addition and 1600 square foot remodel (we are leaving about 1600 sq feet alone). I have been researching for about 2 weeks and think that I simply have learned that I do not know much!

The budget for home automoation/security with video/multi-room audio/media server/Climate control is about $10,000. The $10k is for security cameras, 3 touchpanels, switches speakers, control panels, HV wiring by electrician, all other wiring by me). The Home theater stuff is a whole seperate issue for another forum. In any event after much reading I think that I will get enough reliability from HAI HLC products. I like the switches, new POE touchpanels due in April, new whole home audio, interconnectivity with CQC.

Due to my budget I cannot get a hardwired system like Lutron Homewors but that is okay (I need money for the home theater). I thought that I would wire Cat5 to each HAI switch in case I am unsatisfied witht he UPB technology in which case I could by the EDT Iline equipment. I thik that someone else on this forum is thinking along the same ines that I am. The only downside I saw to EDT is that there is no native CQC support and I am not sure how easy it will be for me to interface CQC to ELK to EDT. Never done any of this stuff before but I am an avid DIYer.

Am I correct in thinking that EDT is as reliable as Homeworks?
Should I just install the EDT instead of the HAI HLC and then try and pay Dean or someone to make a driver that we can chare with everyone? Maybe that is too expensive (I do not know). I do know that I like the CQC concept so I really want to use it.
If I go with the HAI HLC brand will I really need CQC?
Is HAI's HLC line of UPB the most reliable out there?
What is the worst that I can expect from the UPB? I want reliable but I can live with a very very occasional issue (press a button and nothing happens sort of thing, perhap a 1/2 second delay every once in a while when trying to turn on a light). I cannot live with lights just popping on for no reason or simply not responding. I need the lights to react like they are being switched from a standard switch.
I should also mention that my electrician has given me a very very good quote and I like the standard HV wiring scheme of wireless, UPB and EDT. If I ask the electrician to rethink the wiring scheme I think he will use the opportunity to move my current quote higher!
 
Welcome to Cocoontech. Just a few comments...

You're looking at ALOT of stuff for that budget! I'm sure you've read in other threads that HAI is great equipment, but perhaps not the best to DIY, thats why Elk is so popular here. The Elk will save you money and be more DIY friendly. In any case, be sure you get the DEALER software as you will need it to program the panel.

EDT needs to be daisy chained, so if you are going to run cat5 as a backup, I would run 2 to each switch so you can easily to a homerun daisy chain. There is no reason it would not be 100% reliable as all the control is hardwired. I can not comment on switch reliability but I have not heard any issues with it.

You may want to get the protocol from them now and send it to Dean so he can tell you quickly if it will be a quick or difficult driver.

Ok, so now as I'm reading it over again I'm confused. I read that you were using HAI but it sounds more like just their UPB stuff and perhaps Elk - but you make reference to HAI's new touchpanel, which traditionally only works with their panel?

Anyway, the HAI UPB stuff is good, the difference between HAI, SAI and PCS is personal with a difference in feel if the switch and LED size/brightness and color. You mention having an issue with 1/2 delay, but that is approximately what the local load delay time is all the time. Control signals are virtually instant, but there is a slight delay when you touch the switch to control the local load - it is not instantaneous like a regular switch.

The HAI HLC brand really has nothing to do with whether you should get CQC??? If you want touchscreen and HT software as well as all the complementry stuff software offers, then sure CQC is great stuff, but it really has nothing to do with whether you choose HAI or UPB.
 
I realize that $10,000 is a bit on the skimpy side but I will spend more if I need to. I really appreciate your comments as I am looking to Cocooners for mentoring. I have placed a call to an integrator (Toymaster Kirk K). In a brief conversation he has recommended the HAI HLC line. I am moving out of my house for the next 10 month during construction into a small rental property. I am going to buy an HAI starter kit just to play around with. I figure that if I like it I will use it in my home (I think I have until ~July/August to decide). If I do not like it I guess I can sell it on EBAY. Running the double Cat5 (600V) cable is easy for me to do myself and I think s a good backup. I was hoping you might be able to answer some further questions on the lighting reliability and speed. I'll simply list them in hopes that it will be easier to answer them.
1) Other than the atual hardware (switch build quality), is it safe to assume that the EDT equipment is as fast and reliable as Lutron Homeworks or Vantage?

2) You said "...that is approximately what the local load delay time is all the time. Control signals are virtually instant, but there is a slight delay when you touch the switch to control the local load..."
Would the EDT Iline be instantaneous? If not, would any hardwired system? Is the delay only when I use the switch which is located locally to the light(load)?
3) I decided to edit this point from my initial post. I see that for about $1200 each I can get 2 Elk TS07 touchpads and hok them up using POE switch. If I do this will I be able to uses CQC to present weather, eaming music information, outlook e-mail reminders??? For some reason I have read about a lot of people talking about running Terminal services or other multi-session software in order to have multiple touchpads with CQC. I guess if I hook the Elk up to the LAN and have multiple POE touchpads I should be okay. I will hook up a touchscreen monitor to the video card of the CQC server in my theater room. I hope I am understanding this correctlly. I guess that the folks needing to run full blown XP touchscreen products are just trying to use some sort of CQC browser based control???
4) The whole touchpad issue is confusing to me. I thought I would use a touch screenmonitor in my theater room and jhook it up to the video on the CQC server. If I do that what is an economical way to have 2 or 3 remote touchpads that will display weather, music etc..?

5) The other nice thing about HAI whcih I have nit seen elsewhere is the nifty screens that have a volume knob with them. I am not sure what information I cna present on this screen as I have not researched it very much, but I o like the idea of having a imply knob and small screen just for audio data.

I think I could go on and on and on with 100 more questions. I will simply force myself to stop. Any help or advice that can be given by anyone is greatly appreciated.
 
4) The whole touchpad issue is confusing to me. I thought I would use a touch screenmonitor in my theater room and jhook it up to the video on the CQC server. If I do that what is an economical way to have 2 or 3 remote touchpads that will display weather, music etc..?

I guess that would depend on a lot on what 'economical' means to you. You can do something like a tiny mini-ITX system (which you can get for around $700 with XP installed), a $200 Lilliput 7" (800x480) screen, and between $100 and $200 for a Cat-5 based KVM extender to get between the two. Install the CQC interface viewer client on it, and it's a touch screen client. If you have a place to put it near the touch screen (and don't require the centralized maintenance), then you can skip the KVM extender.
 
Dean, other than having a PC with XP for each touchpad can I somehow control the CQC interface from the ELK touchpads trhough the ELK?

If not, can a program like RADMIN (a PC anywhere type program) allow for multiple views of the CQC server? All touchpads would show the actions of the touchpad bein manioulated

On a seperate issue do you create drivers for particular products for a fee? For example if I needed a driver for the EDT Iline stuff?

Lastly, I will end up with your product!!!
 
I guess that the folks needing to run full blown XP touchscreen products are just trying to use some sort of CQC browser based control???
Speaking entirely for myself, I only run full blown XP or W2K touchscreens b/c the Fujitsu 3400 is cheaper than anything else. Spending $1200 each isn't an option for me, heck, spending $500 each isn't an option for me.

BTW, for prices all-in, and forgive me if I've pointed this out to you already in some other thread, but chapter 1 of this document has a full listing of everywhere i've spent $$. It's north of $10K, nearly twice that, but then again there's more stuff there than what you're looking to do.
 
Dean, other than having a PC with XP for each touchpad can I somehow control the CQC interface from the ELK touchpads trhough the ELK?

In theory you can run our .Net Interface Viewer on the Elk 7" touch screens. But we've not done this ourselves yet, and can't comment on how well it works and whatnot. You will be more limited in terms of graphical power to create fancy touch screens (mostly the lack of alpha blending in images.)

Another option to try is the BeTwin product from www.thinsoft.com. It's a product that allows you to drive up to four independent Windows sessions from a single machine (not RDP type sessions, but real separate sessions.) A customer has been playing with it and has been reporting good things, but there again we've not tried it ourselves.

As long as it's just driving dedicated interface viewers in a kiosk type of mode, it wouldn't take a particularly powerful box to support that. I think you could probably get your costs down a good bit from $1200 a client. Figure a $1000 machine, a couple of dual -head video cards, an XP license per session, the KVM extender and the touch screen.


If not, can a program like RADMIN (a PC anywhere type program) allow for multiple views of the CQC server? All touchpads would show the actions of the touchpad bein manipulated

If you have a local PC to run that one, why wouldn't you just run our interface viewer on that machine?
 
2) You said "...that is approximately what the local load delay time is all the time. Control signals are virtually instant, but there is a slight delay when you touch the switch to control the local load..."
Would the EDT Iline be instantaneous? If not, would any hardwired system? Is the delay only when I use the switch which is located locally to the light(load)?
Yes, the delay is only when switching the local load. It is because the switch is looking for multiple taps. Hardwire systems should be instantenous but I have no direct experience with EDT.

For the touchscreen there are basically 4 options - a CE based device running the CQC .net viewer (like the Elk panel), an XP based TS PC (like the Nobu) or separate XP pc and touch screen, or a remote screen/terminal services type setup. I think for touchscreens the old expression you get what you pay for is true. The best, albeit most expensive route imho is a xp based touchscreen like the Nobu - it is a nice clean install with the power of full XP. The CE screen like the Elk are nice but as Dean said, there will be a few limitations on the .net viewer. I am not a huge fam of the terminal server approach but it does have its merit.
 
Steve said:
I am not a huge fam of the terminal server approach but it does have its merit.

Ive been eyeing Rad I/O by touchtronix. Im waiting for a larger touchpanel, though, especially the 1/4 VGA. This should be roughly twice the size of the current 2.7" panel. I tried to get some info from Dwayne but he is tight lipped as to when the 1/4 VGA and full VGA versions are coming and when the improved touchpanels are coming.

The major merit on this is cost:

Rad I/O with 8 touchpanels and video card and computer is $ 2445.

One Nobu is $ 3600.
 
I do hope the new stuff Dwayne brings out will be good. He is a good guy and working hard at this. Better quality and very responsive screens will certainly change my mind. And yes Nobu is crazy expensive but it is a high quality product fills a hole where there is nobody else. And I'm sure if you were really interested you could probably get a much better deal from some distributer. It would be awesome if there were more competitors that had a Nobu like product in an affordable price range for DIYers.
 
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