No Elk Joy - complete crash.

[kwschumm]

So I was working on wrapping up my first M1 system today. A good size system with two buildings and five input expanders.
 
I connected a couple of leak sensors and moved a few sensors to Area 2 via ElkRP and downloaded them to the M1.
 
Then BAM. Nothing worked on the bus. ElkRP could still connect and it showed the status that no inputs were being read.
 
Since I had not saved the recent ElkRP changes I exited it without saving and then restarted and loaded the old database which was working fine.
 
Downloaded it to the M1. It made no difference, nothing on the bus is communicating.
 
I haven't touched anything on the bus in a few weeks.
 
Anyone have something like this happen? Thoughts?
 
TIA

 

[keepersg]

Did you try re-enrolling the devices on the bus?

 

[kwschumm]

keepersg, on 14 Jun 2020 - 16:07, said:
Did you try re-enrolling the devices on the bus?

Thanks!

No, I left the job site to think about it a bit. But none of the keypads are working, even address 1.

 

[TrojanHorse]

Not sure I can help but for me and others:

Is anyone else doing work at this site or just you? For example a guy just nailing trim could mess something up in this imperfect world...

Did you do the wiring and is this a new build or retrofit?

Any other info would be helpful to narrow down solutions.

You say this is your first Elk and I’ve only done my own but every time I touch it I learn something new...

In addition to (or before if that’s not working) re-enrolling as suggested, shut down power to the system and measure resistance across the bus at A and B at the panel. Should be something like 65 Ohms +/- 10%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RAL]

I would try reducing things to a minimum - just the M1 and 1 local keypad connected with a short cable and properly terminated - and see if it shows any signs of life.

Check the Status LED near the M1 power switch and read the blink code.  That may tell you something.  You'd like to see one blink with equal on and off times.
 
If things work ok with the single keypad, then start adding more devices to the data bus, one at at time.
 
You mentioned multiple buildings.... do you have cabling between the buildings protected with surge suppressors, such as those by Ditek?   I recall a few months back you were considering optical isolators.   Did you go that route?

 

[kwschumm]

Not sure I can help but for me and others: Is anyone else doing work at this site or just you? For example a guy just nailing trim could mess something up in this imperfect world... Did you do the wiring and is this a new build or retrofit? Any other info would be helpful to narrow down solutions. You say this is your first Elk and I’ve only done my own but every time I touch it I learn something new... In addition to (or before if that’s not working) re-enrolling as suggested, shut down power to the system and measure resistance across the bus at A and B at the panel. Should be something like 65 Ohms +/- 10% Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the response. I was the only one on site. I did all the wiring for this new build.
 
This bus consists of two runs from the M1, one to the house and one to the shop. In the house the run connects to a DBH, crosses over to a second DBH and is terminated there.
 
No termination jumper on J3 of the M1.
 
The second run connects to a DBH in the shop and is terminated there.
 
I made a short Cat5e cable with an RJ45 plug on one end and tied the A and B pairs together on the other end (W/O and W/G, O and G). This cable was plugged into the second DBH on the house loop just before the terminating jumper.
 
With a meter on the twisted together A&B pairs of this jumper it measured 120.2 ohms. This is far from the 65 ohms you mentioned.

 

[keepersg]

The two DBHs on the house bus should be connected with a crossover cable and the termination should be with just one termination plug that came with the DBH on the second DBH.  Is that how you have it connected?

 

[kwschumm]

I would try reducing things to a minimum - just the M1 and 1 local keypad connected with a short cable and properly terminated - and see if it shows any signs of life.

Check the Status LED near the M1 power switch and read the blink code.  That may tell you something.  You'd like to see one blink with equal on and off times.
 
If things work ok with the single keypad, then start adding more devices to the data bus, one at at time.
 
You mentioned multiple buildings.... do you have cabling between the buildings protected with surge suppressors, such as those by Ditek?   I recall a few months back you were considering optical isolators.   Did you go that route?

Thanks very much for the response!
 
I disconnected the shop run from the bus and installed the terminating J3 jumper on the M1.
 
I've been using a keypad at address 16 on J1 of the panel, which has been working, so I reset it to address 1 in the first DBH and installed the DBH termination resistor in J2. So this should isolate it to just the M1 and the keypad, right?
 
It's not working, no communication.
 
Would you think the M1 board is bad?
 
Thanks so very much for your advice!

 

[kwschumm]

The two DBHs on the house bus should be connected with a crossover cable and the termination should be with just one termination plug that came with the DBH on the second DBH.  Is that how you have it connected?

Thanks.
 
Yes, that's how it is. A crossover cable, as indicated in the manual diagram, between the two DBHs and one terminator at the last jack. The shop just has one DBH and it had one terminator on the last jack also. No terminators anywhere else (at least that's how I intended to do it, I should do a survey on that but the fact that it was all working for weeks sort of indicates to me that they are OK).

 

[jpmargis]

With a meter on the twisted together A&B pairs of this jumper it measured 120.2 ohms. This is far from the 65 ohms you mentioned.

You are missing a termination.  It could be an actual terminator, a broken wire, or a bad connection.

 

[RAL]

You are missing a termination.  It could be an actual terminator, a broken wire, or a bad connection.

I agree with jpmargis.  Sounds like only one terminator installed.
 
Each terminating resistor is 120 ohms.  If you have 2 terminators installed, then you should get a reading of about 60 ohms between the A-B wires.   If you are measuring with only one branch connected and just one terminator installed, then 120 ohms would be ok.

 

[RAL]

Thanks very much for the response!
 
I disconnected the shop run from the bus and installed the terminating J3 jumper on the M1.
 
I've been using a keypad at address 16 on J1 of the panel, which has been working, so I reset it to address 1 in the first DBH and installed the DBH termination resistor in J2. So this should isolate it to just the M1 and the keypad, right?
 
It's not working, no communication.
 
Would you think the M1 board is bad?
 
Thanks so very much for your advice!

Ok, you left me a little confused.
 
You connected a keypad which was configured to address 16 to J1 on the panel.   Then you changed it to address 1.   Did you do that on the keypad by holding the "*" key for 10 seconds?
 
Was the keypad connected directly to J1 at this point, with nothing else on the data bus?    Not even the DBH?
 
I'm confused about what you did with the DBH.  You say you reset it to address 1 in the first DBH.  The DBH has no address assignments.  Do you mean you plugged it into the first jack on the DBH rather than J1 on the panel?  And then you plugged the RJ45 terminator plug into J2?

 

[kwschumm]

It has one termination pack on each end of the bus.
 
Upon further investigation I found the "convenience" keypad being used in the panel is showing an open between A and B.
 
Checked the keypad wiring and it all seems correct, and there is connectivity between its RJ45 plug and the four R/B/G/W terminals on the back of the keypad. It had been working so the wiring should be right.
 
To double check, with the keypad inserted in the DBH the entire bus fails, with the keypad removed it all works.
 
Thanks for all your help folks, I would have banged my head on a wall for a long time without you.

 

[kwschumm]

Ok, you left me a little confused.
 
You connected a keypad which was configured to address 16 to J1 on the panel.   Then you changed it to address 1.   Did you do that on the keypad by holding the "*" key for 10 seconds?
 
Was the keypad connected directly to J1 at this point, with nothing else on the data bus?    Not even the DBH?
 
I'm confused about what you did with the DBH.  You say you reset it to address 1 in the first DBH.  The DBH has no address assignments.  Do you mean you plugged it into the first jack on the DBH rather than J1 on the panel?  And then you plugged the RJ45 terminator plug into J2?

Yes, I had a keypad at address 16 connected to DBH J1. I then set the keypad address to 1 (using * and F1) and installed the termination pack in J2. With just this keypad on the bus it wouldn't communicate. Just a bad keypad!

 

[kwschumm]

Oh, RAL, you asked about the isolators on the bus. I tried them, they didn't work right off so I took them out.
 
i want to get back to them with a scope and see what the turnaround time is. According to B&B they should work so I want to get their take on it after gathering a bit more data.
 
If those can't be made to work, do the Ditek protectors work on the Elk bus?