Planning to Automate - with noise

[MSG56]

I'm in the decision making process starting from scratch to automate a new 5,000 sq.ft. home (move-in summer 2016).  I'm the DIY type and have been considering HS3 w/HomeTroller S6 PRO, ELK M1 Gold, UPB, some Z-Wave, and HTD audio.  (At one point in the distant past I planned to use HAI, but left that idea behind when it looked like they were not friendly to DIY’ers.  Is that still the case now that they were bought out?)
 
I plan to automate lighting, locks, window treatments, phone screening, whole house audio, security w/cameras, sprinklers, and other things as time and my skills permit.  The builder is not a custom builder, but for the cost of a two-year monitoring contract they will install a hardwired (Honeywell) alarm system.  I figure that’s worth it just to get the hardwired contacts in place.  (If the Honeywell they install doesn’t meet my needs I would rip it out and replace with the ELK.)  They will also run CAT 5/6 to various locations of my choosing, but the cost is pretty high.  They will also install ceiling speakers where I desire, but again, at high cost.
 
I mentioned UPB, but I’ve really struggled with this decision, which isn’t final yet.  Since it will mostly be a retrofit I’m a bit limited in some areas, however, I used to be an electrician (EE now) in a previous life and can be creative at getting cables to some, but not all locations.  (I will not have the builder install anything like speakers or extra CAT6 on the second floor since I can do all that myself from the attic.)  One concern I have is that I plan to have a hobby/wood shop in the basement.  How would I keep the noise from running a table saw and other equipment from interfering with my HA system?  What retrofittable (sp?) technology would you choose?  I’m worried that UPB might not be able to handle the noise.  My wife is not a technology person, so I’ve got to make things very user friendly.
 

 

 

 

[pete_c]

Very nice msg56.
 
Best not to put the cart before the horse in your endeavor. 
 
What I mean is to initially create an infrastructure environment that will work with anything today and tomorrow.
 
Really this is about getting your monies worth.
 
A neighbor here locally retired built a woodcraft woodshop in his finished basement.  It is sound proofed and you don't even know that it is there when you go to his finished basement.  Lately he started to build clocks and giving them away for Christmas gifts.  The finished regular part of the basement is connected to a ground level sun room with a jacuzzi et al plus a putting green outside that faces a golf course for that outdoorsy look.  Then also there is the media section with the large screen TV and mini bar providing a sports bar atmosphere (along with another bedroom / full bathroom - you can live down there and come and go with your own entrance to the section).  Well too there are only two of them living in the house.
 
A CT user here utilized a lighting designer prior to constuction.  This more related to base lighting implementation rather than the technologies of lighting type of stuff.  Just something to think about relating to WAF.
 
Here I still utilize X10, Insteon, UPB, Z-Wave and Zigbee.  Primarily today my in wall switches are UPB and I have not had any issues with it.
 
I like wireless but am not dependant on it for my automation (but that is me). 
 
The Elk M1 and HAI panels are a good start as both are DIY friendly.  I chose to use HAI many years ago mostly though because in one home I built a small closet and the HAI panel just fits in there nicely with a separate Leviton can.
 
Here too I have been a Homeseer user since the late 1990's (before the HAI stuff). 
 
I did though have a bit of automation in my installed panel from the 1980's in the old house (it was more security and had built in very primitve text to speech and X10 connectivity).

 

[Choots]

I think the OP is referring to EMI noise creating interference with on the power line and causing potential UPB problems, not audible noise ( where soundproofing helps).
 
MSG56 - perhaps something like this?  Might have to find a 220V version or something depending on your table saw motor wiring.
 
http://www.smarthome.com/act-af120-15-amp-plug-in-noise-filter.html

 

[wkearney99]

Insulation is a pain in the ass to work with.  That and if you go with spray foam it's next to IMPOSSIBLE to run anything else in the wall at a later date.  My advice is if you plan on wiring a space DO IT NOW, because you'll never get around to it later.  I ran all my own, once all the other trades had run their stuff (plumbing, fire, HVAC, electrical) but before drywall and insulation.  One tip, be sure to tuck your wiring back into the boxes lest the insulation crew lop off the ends when levelling the foam.
 
You don't have to terminate everything.  I didn't.  I've got blank 2-gang wall plates in several locations that I may never get around to using.  But the wire is there and is home-run back to the central wiring point.  Each has at least two RG6 and 3 CAT5E (or in some cases 1 CAT5E and 2 CAT6).  With an electrical outlet right on the opposite side of the same stud.  For ceiling speaker location I used a Bosch laser lever to point a line down from where the speaker wire was left in the joists and measure and X/Y distance from the nearby walls.   If/when I want to connect speakers I only have to measure to find them.
 
Oh, TAKE PICTURES of everything right before the insulation is installed.  You have no idea how handy it's been to have pictures of where there are doubled-up king studs and the like.  
 
These days it's unlikely most gear is going to have problems from a saw or other power tools.  Especially not if you've got your shop properly wired up to spread the potential loads across several circuits (not just everything off one 20A branch).  

 

[pete_c]

Yup; neighbor put a subpanel in for his workshop.  Well too you don't know that his workshop is there.

 

[pete_c]

1 - The builder is not a custom builder, but for the cost of a two-year monitoring contract they will install a hardwired (Honeywell) alarm system.  I figure that’s worth it just to get the hardwired contacts in place.  (If the Honeywell they install doesn’t meet my needs I would rip it out and replace with the ELK.)  
2 - They will also run CAT 5/6 to various locations of my choosing, but the cost is pretty high.  
3 - They will also install ceiling speakers where I desire, but again, at high cost.

 
1 - Here on a new build contractor had a local alarm company do the infrastructure cabling prior to finish.  There was also the option based on my personal choice of choosing a panel.  I personally changed the wiring penciling in my changes to the drawings and added more alarm and LV cabling with a 2 day window of play prior to completion of endeavor.  After all was finished I installed an OmniPro II panel.  It was a 2-day endeavor.  The wires were labeled and I just double checked the cabling before connecting it to the panel.  I also terminated each cable which was also very easy to do.
 
2 - This is typically most cost reasonable as spools of catxx are very reasonably priced.  I personally ran 2-4 catXX cables to every room of the home during construction and just used boxes to terminate (no ends were terminated).
 
3 - In to music such that I personally installed 16/4 and 16/2 to every room of the home (not terminated) plus one dedicated for sound wall box catXX.  I did the same in another home now with 12 + 8 audo zones.  I did pencil in placement of the inwall speakers in the drawings and just used wall plates for the unterminated wires.
 
Personally would cut a deal for the infrastructure cabling or ask contractor to let you subcontract alarm company wiring guys to run your speaker / catxx cables.
 
Most important is infrastructure configurations for automation (electric, plumbing-water, LV cabling, lighting, HVAC et al).  Rest can come later if you have a good infrastructure.  Added central vac system too to one build.
 
BTW I did originally get quotes from contractor (that was mostly building 1 + million dollar homes in the area) in 1999 (home was built in 2000). He also showed me what he had done with LV cabling.  He really didn't have a clue about it such that I was very persistent about doing my own stuff and did do it prior to completion of the home.

 

[MSG56]

I think the OP is referring to EMI noise creating interference with on the power line and causing potential UPB problems, not audible noise ( where soundproofing helps).
 
MSG56 - perhaps something like this?  Might have to find a 220V version or something depending on your table saw motor wiring.
 
http://www.smarthome.com/act-af120-15-amp-plug-in-noise-filter.html

Choots - Yes electrical noise is what I was getting at, but the other type can also be bothersome, although I don't think it would cause my lights to flicker.  Thanks for the link to the filter.  I figured there was probably something like this available, but never really looked into it before.  I like the idea of trying to stop the noise at its source.

 

[MSG56]

Yes, I wish I could put in (myself) what I want before the drywall goes up, but unfortunately with my situation that won't be possible.  We'll still be overseas while the house is being built, so that it will be ready about the time we move back to the U.S.  Also, due to liability issues the builder wouldn't let me do any of my own work in the house anyway, its a track builder.  I've looked at the prices the builder's subcontractor charges for additional cabling, so beyond a couple upgrades, I only plan to have them install things were I would have to tear up too much sheetrock in my brand new home.  However, looking at the drawings I believe I've found a simple path to run conduit from the utility room in the basement to the attic.  I'll use this to install everything on the second floor myself.  I also plan to use this path to install the central vacuum system.  They don't offer the system I want to use, Hide-A-Hose), so I'll do it myself.
 
I'll fly back to the States before the sheetrock goes up and take a zillion pictures.
 

My advice is if you plan on wiring a space DO IT NOW, because you'll never get around to it later.  I ran all my own, once all the other trades had run their stuff (plumbing, fire, HVAC, electrical) but before drywall and insulation.  One tip, be sure to tuck your wiring back into the boxes lest the insulation crew lop off the ends when levelling the foam.

 

[MSG56]

When we bought our last house, which we are now renting while we are overseas, the basement was unfinished.  I finished it myself.  One of the first things I did was cut open the sheetrock above the electrical panel in the garage and stubbed out a 3/4 EMT, ran it across the garage ceiling and back down the other end where I penetrated into the basement ceiling.  I installed a sub panel and ran everything else in the basement from there.  Oh yes, I did patch the sheetrock.  
 
In the new house I'll have to pay the builder to run a conduit from the main panel to the utility room, because I believe the main panel will be in a finished wall inside the media room.  I don't really want to tear that up.  I'll install a sub-panel in the utility room/work shop and run another conduit up to the attic and put in another sub-panel.  I guess the worse case scenario is that I would have to cut up a bit more sheetrock than I would like, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.  
 
It's killing me to have to keep waiting before I can start all this, but in the mean time I'll continue to learn as much as I can and try to be ready when the time comes.

Yup; neighbor put a subpanel in for his workshop.  Well too you don't know that his workshop is there.

 

[MSG56]

The builder's sub that does all the LV wiring will install a single gang box with one cat5 for $185, or two cat5's to the same box for 300, or three for $375.  They charge $25 to upgrade any cat5 to cat6, which I plan to do.  I got this information from the brochure they gave me, but I haven't got a good feeling yet about how flexible these guys are.  I won't be able to sit down with them until we sign a contract for the house, which won't happen until next spring at the earliest.  One other upgrade I plan to take for $999 is to have them increase the size of the network panel (14"x28") with a 1x8 passive video module and 8 port 10/100 network switch, install 5 dual ports (1 coax and one cat5) and prewire for Fios.   

Personally would cut a deal for the infrastructure cabling or ask contractor to let you subcontract alarm company wiring guys to run your speaker / catxx cables.

 

[wkearney99]

Tract houses, or ones built from a builder's "standard" set of plans are fine, but how builders try and force things on you isn't.  
 
But realize, anything you don't do now will likely be a lot more trouble later.  No doubt the subs and the builder "sort of" know this.  That and LV installers are typically doing end-to-end installations.  That is, they're not just going to pull wire, but actually terminate both ends of it and test them.  This way they know what they've installed is good and can stand behind it, warranty-wise (if there actually is such a thing anymore).  
 
Thus there's a lot of savings to be had pulling wires yourself, when possible.  Especially if you pull the wire but don't terminate all of it.  Just pull it to boxes on each end and button those up in order to pass electrical/LV inspection.  But you likely can't do this if you don't already own the house.  We did, we tore down the old one that we owned and contracted with the general to build us a new one on the same lot.  Part of that entailed being able to install LV wiring.  No doubt a tract house builder isn't interested in this because you don't already own it.  Thus having to use their sub, at their pricing.
 
My advice?  Pay them.  Get it done and move on.  Otherwise you'll end up with not having wire where you need it and too much trouble to do it later.  There's a limited supply of "round tuits" we all get and wiring never gets enough of them.
 
Besides, once folded into the larger mortgage costs, the wiring add-ons will seem like a drop in the bucket.

 

[wkearney99]

What you may want to do is talk to them about a custom plan, not necessarily terminated in the rooms. 
 
At the very least you need to sit down and REALLY THINK about how the rooms are REALLY GOING TO GET USED.  I put this in CAPS to REALLY emphasize the point.
 
All too often someone looks at just the overhead floorplan view and how things look on paper.  This often fails to take things into account like daylight glare, night time privacy and just plain walk-ability of the space.  While the TV might look good "over here", that turns out to be a disaster because of the way the daylight sun from the nearby windows cast a blinding glare off the face of it.  Morning sun is a problem, as is later day summer sun.  Or that "desk" area in a kitchen, yeah, seems great, until you realize that everyone walking past it all the time makes it utterly useless because the chair needed for it would stick out into the main walking path.  Or a bedroom layout that runs into the same kinds of combinations (sun, walking) or furniture that won't fit under too-low window sills.
 
This comes into play when you install low voltage wiring because the devices that need the connections need to be situated where people can use them without having to extend wires all over the floor.
 
This is a headache for most folks, and it's even worse when you're forced into accepting tract home plans.  Personally I think it's best to avoid buying into builder accessories like kitchen desks or built-ins.  Mainly because the builders don't actually live in the floorplan they're building and don't usually have any sense of how a space actually gets used.  Sure, the options sound good on paper or during a sales pitch, but they're wretchedly stupid once installed.

 

[sda]

The builder's sub that does all the LV wiring will install a single gang box with one cat5 for $185, or two cat5's to the same box for 300, or three for $375.  They charge $25 to upgrade any cat5 to cat6, which I plan to do. ...

 
Bend over and smile.   Everybody gets a turn with you in new construction.

 

[wkearney99]

Everybody gets a turn with you in new construction.

 
Well, yeah, kinda.  Trouble is most folks don't know that until they've already got grip marks on their ankles.  You do have to know ahead of time there's going to be some attempts by all their other players to take whatever advantages they can.  Life's like that in general.  But since most folks don't build more than one house in their lives (for, oh so many, good reasons) they end up feeling more pain than expected.  
 
The developers and builders are often QUITE aware of this.  The subs... well, they're complicit but I wouldn't be as quick to lump them into the same cesspool of disgust as the developers.  They're usually just going along with whatever nonsense the builders try to get away with.  The subs often get screwed nearly as bad as the customers.  Here's a point to consider, if the sub hasn't done many jobs for the builder this raises two red flags.  One is that the sub might not have a good handle on doing things or, two, the builder is such a jackass that no subs stick around to tolerate the nonsense.  Either way you're screwed.  Conversely if the sub has been with the builder for ages then they're likely partners in the same crime.  Great, isn't it?  
 
The analogies get ugly, but they're not entirely inaccurate.

 

[MSG56]

What you may want to do is talk to them about a custom plan, not necessarily terminated in the rooms. 
 
At the very least you need to sit down and REALLY THINK about how the rooms are REALLY GOING TO GET USED.  I put this in CAPS to REALLY emphasize the point.
 
All too often someone looks at just the overhead floorplan view and how things look on paper.  This often fails to take things into account like daylight glare, night time privacy and just plain walk-ability of the space.  While the TV might look good "over here", that turns out to be a disaster because of the way the daylight sun from the nearby windows cast a blinding glare off the face of it.  Morning sun is a problem, as is later day summer sun.  Or that "desk" area in a kitchen, yeah, seems great, until you realize that everyone walking past it all the time makes it utterly useless because the chair needed for it would stick out into the main walking path.  Or a bedroom layout that runs into the same kinds of combinations (sun, walking) or furniture that won't fit under too-low window sills.
 
This comes into play when you install low voltage wiring because the devices that need the connections need to be situated where people can use them without having to extend wires all over the floor.
 
This is a headache for most folks, and it's even worse when you're forced into accepting tract home plans.  Personally I think it's best to avoid buying into builder accessories like kitchen desks or built-ins.  Mainly because the builders don't actually live in the floorplan they're building and don't usually have any sense of how a space actually gets used.  Sure, the options sound good on paper or during a sales pitch, but they're wretchedly stupid once installed.

A lot of very good advice here.  I've been modeling the floor plans in SketchUp.  Once I settle on a particular building lot I’ll lay the plan down and check out all the natural lighting issues.