Replacing 8 110VAC smoke detectors with 8 FSA-210s on DSC 1832....

[sorka]

I've been meaning to get around to this for years but have been putting it off. My current house smoke detectors are 18 years old. They are 110v ac and tied together.
 
Questions:
 
1) Can I reuse the 3 wire romex for 2-wire smokes? They are not tied in series but rather more like a tree (shortest runs to get them all hooked up), so several of them terminate at the end of a run. Can I use a terminating resister on several leaves? 
 
2) If I want them to all go off together like they currently do, I assume I have to use a PRM-2W?
 
3) In alarm current is 480 ma (for all 8) and since I already need to add a few other things, I've decided I need to add more power from a 5204 or a 5200. 
 
4) Would the PRM be powered off the 5204 AUX? Where does the ground wire of the PRM go? The BLK terminal of the 5204??
 
5) On the PRM (http://cms.dsc.com/download.php?t=1&id=13050) it says C and NO go to Panel Fire Zone. Where? PGM2 and Zone Common? Would it make sense to use O2 on the 5204 instead?
 
6) Triggering polarity reversal. The PRM install sheet is confusing. What do I do with T1 and T2? If I select option B, it says T1 is not used and T2 is hooked up to the Bell. Does that mean that the alarm bell has to sound in order for the smoke detector sirens sound? If I don't want that, then do I need option A? Does this mean I need a relay? What does it mean "To Panel Fire Alarm Trigger"? 
 
7) Can I use the same tranformer for both 5010 and 5204 since the power requirements of both those boards are way lower than the capability of the Elk 30 VAC transformer I have?
 
8) Would it make more sense to add another cabinet or should I just get a larger cabinet that would hold it all? If so, what would your recommend?
 
9) At the top of the second page of the PRM install guide, it says the PRM must be installed "beyond the last detector". What does the mean? The end of a serial run? But the diagram shows it at the beginning, not the end and it shows a terminating resistor at the end. 

 

[sorka]

Here's another thought. I'm at 16 zones now with 8 on the panel and 8 on a 5108. 
 
Could I add another 5108 and home run each detector to a zone (zone set to type 7)? I'd give up being able to have them all sound together but I'd be willing to give that up to know which detector was activated.
 
I assume the negative terminal of each smoke would go to zones 1-8 and the positive would goto VAUX on the 5208?????

 

[sorka]

Hmm. So looking at the 210 installation guide, I think I have this all wrong. I think as long as I provide power to the smokes and wire back the NO/C relay to the Zone and Com, that should do it. I'll need a 4 wire conductor. Two for the power on the smoke and 2 for the NO/C relay.
 
I guess I'd still power them off the 5204 through Aux and Blk?

 

[pete_c]

Personally I would replace the 18 year old 120VAC detectors with new 120VAC ones. 
 
I have replaced mine every 4 years or so.  Purchased the 120VAC ones in GC bulk packs.  It doesn't take that long to replace.
 
Run new LV detectors. 
 
I went to 4 wire detectors and it was a PITA but did it for learning about this stuff.  The LV detectors are in proximity of the HV detectors.
 
It was original low on the WAF and today not even noticed.

 

[Del91574]

FSA-210's are 2 wire detectors. You can't wire them directly to a conventional zone.....
 
I think you're putting your horse ahead of the cart in many aspects of your system. You need to spend the requisite time with the documentation and elementary device wiring methods and electronic theories before you can just start throwing hardware at an install and hoping for the best.
 
A power supply issue is one thing, but fire alarm is life safety, and honestly, if you don't understand the basic portion, you're in over your head and you're going to hurt or kill someone.

 

[sorka]

FSA-210's are 2 wire detectors. You can't wire them directly to a conventional zone.....
 
I think you're putting your horse ahead of the cart in many aspects of your system. You need to spend the requisite time with the documentation and elementary device wiring methods and electronic theories before you can just start throwing hardware at an install and hoping for the best.
 
A power supply issue is one thing, but fire alarm is life safety, and honestly, if you don't understand the basic portion, you're in over your head and you're going to hurt or kill someone.

 
If you're saying that you shouldn't use a 2-wire smoke on a zone by zone basis that's fine. I can go with 4-wire detectors.
 
But explain this to me. The FSA210 has an NO an NC relay. If I wire up  switch to a zone on my 5010 I can activate that zone with a switch. The relay is the same thing and it's isolated from the power on the detector. 
 
So back to the original question. What hardware do I need to run a smoke to each zone? 4-wire detectors with an EOLR for each? Do I I need a supervisory power relay for each smoke on each zone?
 
Doing 4-wire in series for a single zone is documented well enough in the 5010 manual:
 

 
But how does this change for doing one detector per zone? This diagram shows them being powered by AUX and PGM1. I can't run 8 smoke with the power requirement on the 5010 and I don't think I can run them all to AUX on the 5204 and still sync them all to PGM1 on the 5010. 

 

[sorka]

Looking the above case for 4-wire in series, I'm assuming the following:
 
1) They are all powered from AUX and PGM1.
 
2) The relays of each are NO and wired in parallel. That way if any single smoke goes active, the NO relay closes and the one zone that all the smoke share is triggered.
 
3) The RM1C is NC but through the EOLR. If power is cut, the relay opens and the the zone circuit is now completely open with no resistance at all and this triggers trouble rather than fire alarm?
 
So if #3 is true, then I'll need an RM1C for each and every smoke to provide that that 3 state level of detection.
 
Lastly, since the relay supplies power supervision through the zone input, does it matter where the power for the smoke comes from as long as it has a suitable battery backup?

 

[Del91574]

You're missing a bunch here and honestly, starting to really get in over your head.
 
The 210 is a 2 wire detector, period. You don't pick how to wire a fire alarm as either NO or NC.
 
Assuming a 14/3 daisy, with what you describe as a "tree", you don't have enough conductors to properly supervise your circuit.
 
Honestly, you're genuinely missing the point, how devices are wired and function and are digging yourself deeper somewhere you don't want to be.
 
You need to slow down, spend the requisite time with the manuals and documentation and understand the basic theories first, otherwise you're going to hurt or kill someone here. The basic statements you're making are making it clear you are doing neither here.

 

[RAL]

Looking the above case for 4-wire in series, I'm assuming the following:
 
1) They are all powered from AUX and PGM1.
 
2) The relays of each are NO and wired in parallel. That way if any single smoke goes active, the NO relay closes and the one zone that all the smoke share is triggered.
 
3) The RM1C is NC but through the EOLR. If power is cut, the relay opens and the the zone circuit is now completely open with no resistance at all and this triggers trouble rather than fire alarm?
 
So if #3 is true, then I'll need an RM1C for each and every smoke to provide that that 3 state level of detection.
 
Lastly, since the relay supplies power supervision through the zone input, does it matter where the power for the smoke comes from as long as it has a suitable battery backup?

 
1) Yes, power is supplied to the smokes from +AUX and PGM1.  But note that PGM1 can only sink 50mA.  So, depending on what model of smoke detector you use, and how many you connect to the panel, you will probably need a relay here to provide the power to the smokes.
 
2. Yes.  Smoke detectors use a normally open contact.
 
3. Yes. the RM1C is normally open, meaning the contact is closed when power is applied.  If power is lost, the relay opens, which disconnects the EOL resistor, causing a trouble condition.
 
The smoke detectors can't close their contacts if power is lost. The smoke detector contact is normally open, and requires power to close it when it detects smoke.  That allows the smoke detector to use minimal power in a non-alarm condition.  That way, you need only one relay drawing power at the end of the daisy chain for power supervision. 
 
I don't see why you would want to put each smoke detector on its own zone.  That will cost you more money to add a zone expander to the system to connect all the smokes.  And you will need an EOL resistor and power supervision relay for each smoke.   Overall, it makes things more complex, and doesn't provide any real benefit.
 
The right way to do things would be to run wire to create a proper daisy chain of all the smokes and connect them to a single zone.   You can go with either 2-wire or 4-wire smokes.  2-wire tends to be simpler since it eliminates the need for the power supervision relay.

 

[sorka]

You're missing a bunch here and honestly, starting to really get in over your head.
 
The 210 is a 2 wire detector, period. You don't pick how to wire a fire alarm as either NO or NC.
 
Assuming a 14/3 daisy, with what you describe as a "tree", you don't have enough conductors to properly supervise your circuit.
 
Honestly, you're genuinely missing the point, how devices are wired and function and are digging yourself deeper somewhere you don't want to be.
 
You need to slow down, spend the requisite time with the manuals and documentation and understand the basic theories first, otherwise you're going to hurt or kill someone here. The basic statements you're making are making it clear you are doing neither here.

 
As far as slowing down, since I haven't started yet, that's not really possible. If it takes me months of research before I'm satisfied that I've educated myself enough to tackle this, then that's how long it will take. Asking questions is not getting myself in over my head.

 

[sorka]

Lastly, since the relay supplies power supervision through the zone input, does it matter where the power for the smoke comes from as long as it has a suitable battery backup?

 
I'm going to answer my own question here. Even though the power to the smokes are supervised so that if the smokes lose power, you know there's trouble. However if the power supply itself is not supervised and has a battery backup, if it fails, you won't know there's a problem until the battery dies. If the 5204 loses it's AC power, the 5010 will notify you immediately and now you still have time with a battery backup to fix the issue. 

 

[sorka]

1) Yes, power is supplied to the smokes from +AUX and PGM1.  But note that PGM1 can only sink 50mA.  So, depending on what model of smoke detector you use, and how many you connect to the panel, you will probably need a relay here to provide the power to the smokes.
 
2. Yes.  Smoke detectors use a normally open contact.
 
3. Yes. the RM1C is normally open, meaning the contact is closed when power is applied.  If power is lost, the relay opens, which disconnects the EOL resistor, causing a trouble condition.
 
The smoke detectors can't close their contacts if power is lost. The smoke detector contact is normally open, and requires power to close it when it detects smoke.  That allows the smoke detector to use minimal power in a non-alarm condition.  That way, you need only one relay drawing power at the end of the daisy chain for power supervision. 
 
I don't see why you would want to put each smoke detector on its own zone.  That will cost you more money to add a zone expander to the system to connect all the smokes.  And you will need an EOL resistor and power supervision relay for each smoke.   Overall, it makes things more complex, and doesn't provide any real benefit.
 
The right way to do things would be to run wire to create a proper daisy chain of all the smokes and connect them to a single zone.   You can go with either 2-wire or 4-wire smokes.  2-wire tends to be simpler since it eliminates the need for the power supervision relay.

 
Thanks for the reply. I realize it's more complicated, and I haven't made a decision yet. Just weighing the options. The extra cost will be an additional $70 or so in relays and a 5108 board. The cost is not really an issue. I realize it will take more time but not really that much more time. With the layout of my house and that my panel is central with smokes in a bunch of different directions, I'll only be using an extra 10% or so of wire to home run wire them.
 
Regardless, I can't power them all of PGM1 or even 2. 
 
So if I add a 5204 or 5200, what do I power the smokes from? AUX and BLK?

 

[RAL]

Thanks for the reply. I realize it's more complicated, and I haven't made a decision yet. Just weighing the options. The extra cost will be an additional $70 or so in relays and a 5108 board. The cost is not really an issue. I realize it will take more time but not really that much more time. With the layout of my house and that my panel is central with smokes in a bunch of different directions, I'll only be using an extra 10% or so of wire to home run wire them.
 
Regardless, I can't power them all of PGM1 or even 2. 
 
So if I add a 5204 or 5200, what do I power the smokes from? AUX and BLK?

 
You would power the smokes from the 5204/5200 +AUX power output and BLK, run through the relay contacts. The relay coil would be powered from the PGM and AUX output of the panel.
 
Although the 5204 and 5200 allow the aux power to be monitored by the keybus, any auxiliary power supply can be monitored by an alarm panel.  Many, such as Altronix power supplies, contain supervisory outputs that you can connect to a zone input on the panel.
 
If you home run new 4-wire cable to the various smoke detector locations, you can use the 4 wires to create a 2-wire daisy chain for 2-wire smokes.  Then you have the simplicity of a true daisy chain, less hardware, all connected to a single zone.
 
Going back to a question you asked in an earlier post, you will need separate AC transformers for the alarm panel and 5200/5204.

 

[sorka]

You would power the smokes from the 5204/5200 +AUX power output and BLK, run through the relay contacts. The relay coil would be powered from the PGM and AUX output of the panel.
 
Although the 5204 and 5200 allow the aux power to be monitored by the keybus, any auxiliary power supply can be monitored by an alarm panel.  Many, such as Altronix power supplies, contain supervisory outputs that you can connect to a zone input on the panel.
 
If you home run new 4-wire cable to the various smoke detector locations, you can use the 4 wires to create a 2-wire daisy chain for 2-wire smokes.  Then you have the simplicity of a true daisy chain, less hardware, all connected to a single zone.
 
Going back to a question you asked in an earlier post, you will need separate AC transformers for the alarm panel and 5200/5204.

 
Thanks again RAL for your time to answer my questions.
 
Would another RM1C be suitable as the power relay? It pulls 33 ma which is well within the PGM1 limit. Would that 33 ma come out of the 550 Aux power limit or is this in addition to that like the Bell output is? i.e. do I need to take that into account when adding up keypads and other things coming out of my 550 ma allowance? The 5010 manual states to count keybus and Aux connected devices, so I assume the 33 ma won't come out of the 550 ma allowance.
 
Question, I've seen a few photos where folks have attached their EOLR to the zone inputs inside the panel. I assume this is a really bad idea because if a rodent chews through the zone wires in the attic, the panel will still see the 5600 ohm resistor and you'll never know there's a problem. I assume the EOLR should be on the last smoke itself so that that if there's a break in either of the zone wires (Z or com) that the resistor will no longer be visible?
 
My reasons for considering multiple zones are:
 
1) When I get a text telling me there's a fire alarm, I'd like to know which zone it was in. My house is a single story home spread out over 6000 sq ft. Waking up in the middle of the night when a fire alarm goes off, I want to know where it is.
 
2) I plan to find a 4-wire heat detector for the attic since my furnaces are up there. Plus fires can be caused by rodents chewing through romex and I have mice up there occasionally. I keep the traps set every now and then one gets up there. In fact, one just chewed through the jacket of an HDMI cable. It's dead now, but not before it did some damage. I'd like to know if the attic heat detector is what went off.
 
3) If there's a power disruption, I'll know which run to check. I won't have to check 500 feet of daisy chained cable.
 
4) The 5010 has a feature related to multiple fire zones going off which I want.

 

[RAL]

The RM1C is fine for the power relay.  The contacts can handle 5A.
 
Although some installers put EOL resistors in the panel for window and door contacts (defeating the purpose of the EOLR), you never, ever do that with smoke detectors.  It's a life safety issue.  If you don't put the EOLR at the very end of the daisy chain, then you don't have complete  supervision of the wiring. 
 
1. Knowing which smoke detector tripped might sound nice, but your main priority should be to get out of the house as fast as possible.  The hell with checking text messages first.  It's not going to matter much where the fire is.  Let the fire department worry about that.
 
If it is a false alarm, it is easy enough to walk through the house and check which detector is flashing its LED to indicate that it triggered.
 
2. Most heat detectors are 2-wire and provide just a simple mechanical contact closure.  You would need to put the heat detector on a separate zone anyway if you are using 2-wire smokes.  The heat detector creates a short, which would short out the power to the 2-wire smokes if they were on the same zone.  You really don't want to put a smoke detector near the furnace.  A simple heat detector is the right thing to use.
 
3. If the wiring is cut somewhere on a 2-wire daisy chain, it's easy enough to find the segment by taking a walk around and seeing which smokes have power and which don't based on the LED flashing.  If there's a short in the wiring, yeah, then it will be a bit more trouble to find. At worst, you'll need to pull several and check the wiring.  But by doing a binary search, it shouldn't require pulling more than 3 of them if you have 8 installed.  And if you wired them using 4-wire home runs, you can do most of the checking from back at the panel.
 
4. Not sure if you mean the "auto verified fire" feature.  For me, I wouldn't use the auto verify, as I view it as slowing down the notification of the fire department until the condition is verified (unless a second zone trips).  I wouldn't want to delay the response, even if just one zone trips.  It might seem like a nice way to filter out false alarms, but if you properly install the smokes, there should be few false alarms.