Tangible Difference CQC vs Homeseer for average DIY

LiTtLeJoE

New Member
Hi all, 
 
Given my use case below, is there anything CQC can do that Homeseer can't or vise versa? I understand both have strengths and weaknesses and target (mostly) different audiences. I'm not looking to start a vendor or community war. I'm looking for tangible, "real world" differences in functionality and performance from people that have used both. For reference, here are the components I'm planning to use: 
 
-HAI OmniPRO II security system
-Lutron RadioRA2 lighting, outlets & HVAC w/some motion sensors
-an undetermined audio system (I was thinking Sonos until I saw they were moving towards the cloud),
-an undetermined sensor/PLC system preferably w/geofencing.
-Local, non-cloud based voice command system (CQC Voice or Microsoft TTS?!?)
-I'd rather not use any Z-wave devices.
-I come from a network & systems engineering background with very little programing experience, but I do have a lot of patience and desire to learn. 
 
This system needs to be no-kidding, rock steady, 100% reliable.
 
Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge...
 
HS3's programming is, well, an acquired taste.  

Ra2 has no support for in-wall outlets.  It has plug-in, in-line modules; which are just as rock-solid reliable as any of the other Ra2 devices.  I've even got some of their table top dimmers configured as switches (just on-off, not dimming) to provide a local paddle control to non-dimming devices (holiday lights, an LED reading lamp with it's own dimming, etc).  Their motion sensors are fantastic.  I've even gone so far as to put one of the corner units on my desk.  It's been doing a terrific job of detecting my presence.

Geo-fencing... the Holy Grail of automation... it still doesn't work reliably enough not to be annoying.  It seems no one has yet cracked the nut of understanding what "you really mean" when it comes to automatic location fencing.  Especially when it's not a single occupant household.  Oh, there's lots of "almost" but none that really rise to being sentient enough to not piss off the wife.

Non-cloud-based voice recog is nowhere near as flexible or well-integrated.  If you want versatile voice recog you're going to have to use the Cloud.  Amazon is the "least heinous" when it comes to user privacy, so that's been my choice.

Sonos has always had hooks that required the cloud, including being among the first players to support a wide range of streaming options.  Their current moves aren't really much of a change.  With the advent of voice recog devices having music streaming there's a serious question about whether whole house audio systems are even worth considering anymore.  
 
Welcome to the Cocoontech forum LiTtLeJoE.

Here have been a Homeseer user since Homeseer 1 and an OmniPro user since the beginning of the 2000's.

Started with using X10 in the late 70's, then Insteon, UPB, ZWave and Zigbee and now tinkering with WiFi.

Have kept the technology in place. Wall switches are now all UPB.

Switched using Homeseer in Windows (last run of Homeseer 2 was using Microsoft server standard) to using Homeseer in Linux (ARM, Intel or AMD).

Kept the Microsoft SAPI going in Linux using VB's while concurrently tinkering with Amazon Alexa. I try still to be not cloud dependant for automation. I am not remote control dependant today. IE: I am not tethered to my smart phones.

Still using a Russound zoned audio system here with wired in wall speakers. Sources of audio are internal and do concurrently stream. I like my music the best.

Over the years have turned down the TTS noise (due to WAF) and like the automation to just run and I do not watch it much except for the tinkering part.

Automation here is divided up a bit with the Omni Pro 2 panel that takes care of the heartbeat of the home and Homeseer 3 that I tinker with different levels of automation.

BTW testing Windows Server Standard 2016 and comparing it to Windows 10 desktop. I like it better for application running over Windows 10. Windows 10 does have nice eye candy and really though for automation you do not need that much eye candy. That is me and my opinion though. Linux desktop also now has a bunch of eye candy if you need it.
Here the automation servers run headless.

The author of CQC (Windows only program) frequents this forum and can answer any questions for you about the software. Give Homeseer and CQC a try and see what you like the best.

Here all in now to Linux and the stability it provides to me relating to automation. Always tinkered and current automation tinkering du jour is Home Assistant, Mosquitto (none cloud based) and LED lighting (years now).
 
I don’t really have a dog in the fight as I use Indigo on a Mac platform - however, I do own a license for Homeseer Pro and have tried to use it through the years...

I find it to be buggy and unreliable to be honest. They support a crap-ton of stuff, but it feels to me that they care more about quantity than quality. I also don’t like that you have to buy so many third-party plugins to get support for a lot of things. In my case the $ for plugins was going to exceed the cost of the HS Pro license.

I don’t have a license for CQC but have lurked in their forums for years. If I were buying a Windows based system, CQC would be my pick based on my perceived quality of the product, the range of *included* supported devices, and the level of support Dean provides. I think that CQC and Indigo are the two best-supported pieces of primary HA software available.

Obviously these are just my opinions and I’m sure others will differ, but hope it helps.

Terry


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I have used both over the years, but use neither today. Homeseer is a bit more full-featured and easier to jump-in and get started. The main software was buggy at times. The real negative of Homeseer is that most plug-ins they sell are contributed, and sometimes sold by third-parties. There are many of these. Last I heard the HAI/Leviton plugin was one of these. Many of these plug-in authors maintain their plugins when their devices change, but many have been long gone for years. So you want to connect HomeSeer to a Samsung TV, for example, and Samsung adds new models or they change FW in a model so the plugin breaks. How do you get it fixed? If the plugin author is still around they fix it, but if not it stays broken. And nothing really motivates plugin authors to fix things because they only get money when they sell the plugin, not for maintenance. And as I say, HomeSeer is selling plugins whose authors are long gone or have even died.
 
CQC is really the creation of one very smart programmer, Dean, and its very capable but it has a rather steep learning curve. Its better today, but still not completely logical, in my opinion. The runtime of CQC tends to be more stable than Homeseer, maybe because its only written by one person, but that is the negative as well. There are less "plugins" than Homeseer, and Dean being human, can't always maintain them all. If you are a software engineer, there is the ability to write your own, but doing this is not trivial. I have never fully written one. So the choice seems to be, be happy with what's available, or maybe in a few years, Dean will create it for you if you maybe if he has time.
 
So its 3 of one and 4 of another.
 
I have not used both, but I want to tell you what I like about CQC.  Dean.
 
There's more to it, of course, but that guy will fix anything that's broken, and walk you through how to do anything with his software.  And I mean, right now.   As ano pointed out, he won't necessarily drop everything to write you a custom driver (though I think he's flexible if the market beyond just you is big enough, or you're willing to pay him extra), but he is the most responsive software developer/steward I've ever dealt with, especially if you weigh it by how long he's been doing it.  Some people give a ton of love to their product - right up to the day they don't, and abandon it after a year or two.  Dean's been at this for a long long time.
 
The other thing I like is that it is a great "glue" product, in addition to being a great "face" product.  Others have used it to create fantastic custom GUIs on various devices they scatter around their homes or build into their walls.  That's the "face" aspect.  Maybe that's something you want to do.
 
I don't use it that way.  I use it to command a lot of devices that you might think are mutually exclusive to work together to do something complex.  My latest example is this:  We have master bathroom connected to our master bedroom.  My wife gets up before I do, almost every day.  She goes into the master bath and closes the door.  On the way in, she "double clicks" the light switch on.  This turns on the bathroom lights, but also turns on the TV and the master bath zone on the Russound audio system, and tunes the Tivo to her morning news channel.  I stay asleep in the dark, quiet bedroom.  She hasn't had to scream at Alexa to get everything the way she wants it to be.  Nirvana.
 
The lights are Insteon, controlled by an ISY controller (IP).  The Tivo is also IP. The TV is old, controlled by IR through a URC controller with an IP plugin.  The Russound, also old, is controlled via RS232 by way of an IP to RS232 gateway.
 
The glue is CQC.  When the switch is double clicked on, the ISY tells CQC that it happened, and CQC commands all of the other pieces to do the right thing.  I'm not a programmer, either; I'm a chemist by training, but I was able to figure out how to make it all work.
 
As for reliability, CQC has never failed me, to my knowledge.  Windows has, but with diminishing frequency as I have learned how to configure my CQC server optimally over time.
 
I hope that's helpful info, even though it's not the CQC vs. Homeseer comparison you asked for.
 
-Tom
 
I've had CQC for about 10 years now.  I can't write a single line of code, only click choices, and it works fine for me.
 
The previous posts have pretty well described why CQC is so reliable so I won't repeat them.  The one thing I might add is that CQC is so bullet proof that mine just runs month in and month out with zero attention and zero failures.  From what I've observed from others posting is that if anything fails to function, it's almost certainly a peripheral not working correctly rather than CQC not performing.
 
And if you are interested in using Linux on ARM or Intel or AMD CPUs there is much Opensource automation out there in Internetlandia that works well these days....and some of it works in Windows...there is a bit more hand holding and DIYing relating to the configurations...
 
Like:
 
OpenHAB, Home Assistant, HomeGenie, Domotiz...et al.
 
Relating to running Homeseer here started initially with Windows 98 then XP then Windows Server.
 
Today while using Windows 10 for desktops / laptops using Windows server 2016 for automation stuff and it works way better than Windows 10 for me.

That is my opinion and it is understood that it is a bit more expensive than Windows 10.
 
I'm limited to 1 post per day, so let me tackle this in a single post...
 
@wkearney99 - Appreciate the insight into the lack of wall plug support in Ra2. Guess I need to keep studying. Based on your advice, I will definitely use insteon motion sensors. Any recommendations for an HA-friendly system besides Sonos? Also, the most valuable sub-textual advice in your post was don't install something that will piss of the wife! Easily the best HA advice I've ever received!!! 
 
@Pete_c - Thanks for the warm welcome and information! If I did go the Homeseer route, I'd definitely want to go Linux/Ubuntu, but I'd be worried about losing the TTS capability on windows... Consequently, I'll probably end up running HS or CQC on Windows Server 2016 (even though I hate it). 
 
@Roussell - Thanks so much for the unbiased, real world opinion. I noticed a lot of the same things you did about CQC support. It seems like Dean's support is second-to-none and the importance of this cannot be understated. 
 
@xlurkr/Tom - You're right, that's not the info I asked for but what you gave me was infinitely better; holistic understanding of a platform, not a marketing bullet point. Also, great double-click WAF solution. If you don't mind, I'm going to steal that one from you:) 
 
@Deane Johnson - Fantastic info. Nothing better than a system that is so reliable you actually forget how to configure it... Bullet proof turns the mullet loose!!! 
 
@everyone - Thanks for all the input. It is clear to me I've been asking the wrong questions... I was too focused on the granular differences in functionality between the two platforms instead of the long-term support and function of the platforms themselves. I'm looking for unencumbered scalability and freedom to automate (not necessarily control) whatever my brain can dream up. I mean, why else DIY an automation system?!? Thanks for the clarity! 
 
Not Insteon motion, I use Lutron Ra2 motion sensors.  Very reliable, very long battery life.  Ceiling or wall mount (180 or 90 coverage). 
 
A tip for the motion sensors, 3M Command picture hanging strips are fantastic for determining best locations for sensors.  I buy a bulk pack to avoid being stingy with placements.  Once you find "the right location" then you can use the screws to hard mount it.  Or not, I've got a couple that are still on 3M strips 3 years running.

DIY home automation continues to be something of a Frankenstein.  But then "commercial home automation" really isn't significantly more intelligent, just more expensive in both hardware and system programming time.

At some point I should probably revisit CQC.  HS3, however, continues to chug along reliably so I've not had much reason to pitch it. 
 
I have, however, given up on Wink, Smart Things and several other now-defunct systems.  Nothing screws up the WAF like unreliable automation.  The cloud has tremendous potential (we use Amazon Echo devices every day) but it has to be done right, and that takes the kind of networking scale that only Amazon and Google seem to be able to provide (at this point).
 
I've had some fits-and-starts with Home Assistant, Hubitat and OpenHab, they're all still a bit rough too. 
 
But none of them really rise to the level of being genuinely intelligent.  None really "learn" anything.  Most are just automation engines, some with less annoying programming schemes than others.

As for WAF, tread carefully.  Best to have a rock-solid foundation of reliable and predictable things to use.  Get started with the basics.  Don't try layering too many things all at once.  Especially when to comes down to getting in the way of relaxation or hobbies.  As in, combining TV remotes and automation is a sure-fire way to lose early support.  KISS, as always, applies.  
 
but I'd be worried about losing the TTS capability on windows... Consequently, I'll probably end up running HS or CQC on Windows Server 2016 (even though I hate it).
 
One of the advantages of running Homeseer 3 over Homeseer 2 is that you can if you want run a plugin on a windows computer remotely connecting to a Linux HS3 box. 
 
I have done this with Homeseer 3 for the Microsoft Kinect hardware use.  I did test the Microsoft SAPI speech talking to the Amazon Echo and it worked well. 
 
 
Relating to using Microsoft SAPI and the Homeseer Speaker client for the the 2 HS3 Linux boxes here run Oracle Virtual box on one of the two Ubuntu computers.
 
The VB is running old Windows 2003 32 bit standard server and 4 instances of the Homeseer speaker client using four different speech fonts.  It works great.
 
You can also today purchase and use Linux SAPI like speech fonts.

Here still sort of sitting on the fence relating to my lighting automation and currently have settled in to the UPB world (years now). Running X10, UPB, Zigbee and ZWave. (and now WiFi and Mosquitto automation).

Insteon was the original thought for transition from X10 and over time and much money here replaced all of the Insteon with UPB and told off the Insteon folks kermungeon and very loud one day at an EHExpo a few years back for their f up.
 
Thanks for the kind response to my post.
 
To be clear, and to reinforce Bill and Pete, I do not recommend Insteon if you're looking for rock solid, 100% reliability.  I probably have 95+%, which is not annoying enough for a cheapskate like me to switch to RA2 or wired.  But I've been on the boards for a long time, and I've never heard anyone who has RA2 complain about it, except for the price.
 
Pete probably got stung by quality issues early in Insteon's history.  I've read about that time, and it was real, and it sucked.  I got in later, and have only had one device out of ~40 fail, and none in the past 3 years or so.  My devices haven't died, they just don't execute 100% of the time.
 
If you do go the Insteon route, you absolutely must get an ISY.  Glad to tell you more why I believe that, but again, even with it, Insteon isn't bulletproof.
 
-Tom
 
In a sort of related question does anybody know if there is an ISY type appliance in the Radio RA2 world? Or is that role considered to be covered by the CQC or Homeseer controller directly? Do the Radio RA2 Hubs have some ISY-like smarts or logic?
 
A Ra2 repeater has some smarts in it.  Mainly for scheduled events, but no conditional logic otherwise.  It's not uncommon to have some events programmed into the Repeater and others running on an external controller.  I've got some sunrise/sunset stuff on there, along with some enable/disable events for motion sensors.  

Lutron has a whole other tier of automation, HWQS but that's into a whole other orbit, price-wise.  If you think Ra2 is pricey..
 
@wkearney99 - Sorry about that. I mis-typed. I meant to say Lutron, not Insteon (I think it was the "on" bit at the end of both names that made my brain betray me). Tremendous advice on WAF engineering. I'm going to take it and start with a very non-intrusive KISS installation. Also, great call on the 3M strips. I just picked up a pack on Amazon. I also just assembled and purchased a "proof-of-concept backbone testing kit" comprised of:
 
1 x CQC License 1 x Lutron RR-MAIN-REP-WH repeater
1 x Lutron LRF2-OWLB-P-WH occupancy sensor
2 x Lutron RR-15APS-a-SW 15-amp appliance plug-in modules
2 x Lutron RDD-6ND-WH dimmer switches
1 x Dahua IPC-HFW4239T-ASE camera
1 x Blue Iris Software
 
Construction of our new home is scheduled to begin this spring, so I thought it best to learn how to configure the most difficult bits now. I'm almost finished with the RadioRa2 Level 1 cert... 
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@everyone - Thanks for the input. I ended up purchasing CQC. It came down to customer service, driver support, and scalability. CQC has unrivaled support and no reliance on 3rd party devs/drivers. Plus, I didn't want to install a system where reliability isn't necessarily guaranteed to scale with complexity. 
 
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