Trouble adding navigator keypad to ElkM1

rhosch

Member
Now construction and new system install, just learning my way around the system and getting everything configured.

I have two keypads currently, a KP2 and a navigator touchscreen. I believe I have followed the termination instructions correctly, but it is something I may have to take the keypads off to double check.

The navigator isn't functioning properly and I think it's because I don't know how to add it to the controller. I currently have only one keypad showing up in the ElkRP database, kayoad01. It was there from the beginning, either default or downloaded from controller, I'm not sure. I've tried adding another keypad for the navigator but it doesn't transfer to the controller properly.

The navigator currently receives information from the controller such as zone violation status, it chimes when a zone is opened, and if I hit the exit button a few times I can quick arm the system in different modes.

However, the menu button does nothing. The violated zones button does nothing. I can't disarm the system from that keypad - I can enter a valid code but nothing happens. For the most part, the keypad seems to respond to input from the controller, but doesn't send much output to the controller and I can't access muh if anything via the keypad.

Any thoughts? I've looked for information on how to configure and add this in the ElkRP software but I'm not finding anything. Maybe I overlooked it. Is this more likely a programming or a termination issue?
 

RAL

Senior Member
Did you set the address on the KPNAV?  Keypads ship with a default address of 1 from the factory, and the M1 will automatically enroll the keypad with address 1 when it powers up.  But if you have multiple keypads set to the same address, that can cause problems. 
 
Try testing the system with just one keypad at a time connected.  Set both keypads to address 1, since you'll be running with only one keypad at a time. You may need to change your terminations around to match this configuration.
 
First, try it with the KP2 connected and the KPNAV disconnected.  If that works, then remove the KP2 and connect the KPNAV and see if that also works.  If the KPNAV works, then you know that the keypads are both good.
 
Next, try it with both keypads connected. Assuming the KP2 is set to address 1, set the KPNAV to a different address, and then you should be able to properly enroll it using the KP2 or the RP2 software.
 
Report back and we can take it from there.
 

rhosch

Member
Awesome, thanks, I'll give that a shot tomorrow and see what so get. I don't recall setting an address on either so that could well be it. I'll take a look at the manuals for each to see how to set the address in case I need to change it.
 

rhosch

Member
Yeah I think that mostly did it. Looks like both keypads were on address 01. I changed the kpnav and got it enrolled through ElkRP. Still haven't figured out how to disarm the system via the kpnav, seem to reject the user code even though it is valid and works to access parts of the menu structure etc. Probably need to spend a little more time rtfm.
 

RAL

Senior Member
Glad to hear things are looking better.   To disarm, all you should need to do is enter your code.  I'm pretty sure the menu structure is built into the keypad, so as you navigate the screens, it is not communicating with the M1.  But to disarm, it needs to send the code to the panel.
 
If entering the disarm code doesn't work, you may have a bad connection somewhere on the data wires, or improper termination.  Also, use a multimeter to check the voltage on the power wires at the keypad to make sure you have full voltage (at least 12V, but should be more like 13.4 if running on AC and not the backup battery).
 

rhosch

Member
OK, I've got a lot of gremlins now that seem to be piling up and after checking connections, terminations, settings, I'm left scratching my head. This isn't ideal since it seems Elk doesn't offer support directly to consumers, and there wasn't a security installer in my area who wanted to use the Elk system.
 
I have 4 devices on the data bus - a KP2, KPNAV, one hardwired zone expander, and one wireless tx/rx. Hardwired expander is on address 4, Wireless on address 2 as required, KP2 is address 1, KPNAV address 2.
 
- still have the issue with Navigator not accepting user code. What is odd is that it recognizes that that is a programed user code (it's the only one I have setup in elkRP so far), because when I enter that code (a 4 digit code) I get a "rude" beep and the system stays armed. When I enter any other combination of numbers, I don't get that rude beep. I can just keep hitting numbers at will, for however many digits I want. But enter that specific code and after the 4th digit I get that beep, and a little clock in the top left corner starts animating.
 
- the wireless transceiver doesn't respond to the keyfobs. I believe I have correctly set them up in ElkRP - the device was successfully enrolled, no zone conflicts with hardwired zones, zone type set to 15 keyfob, and in wireless setup I entered the TX ID on the back of the keyfob. When trying mutliple times I got it to arm the system once, and not with the button that should have according to both the documentation of default settings as well as what I see in ElkRP. I've tried it about 10 feet away from the wireless module, can't imagine that it is a signal issue.
 
I have ordered the data bus hub just to make sure I'm not having bus termination or other issues. Because the idiot security installer who wired the house during construction used 4 wire home runs for everything, I had to order the retrofit version. 
 
 
 
- I also have no voice output for anything at all. Output 2 is connected to a speaker/siren and the siren sounds. Output 1 is connected to an Elk Echo 73 speaker and the siren sounds through this as well, but no voice. I've check every setting I think of in the zone settings, global settings related to siren and voice, general area setup, telephone, everything I can find that might indicate voice output is disabled, or that it is trying to dial and the voice synthesizer is tied up doing that instead. On the keypad I've gone through chime modes to make sure it is on chime + voice. I can't for the life of me figure out what is going on, but I get zero voice notification of any door or window sensor violation, system status, arm/disarm status, alarm triggered, nothing. When I click on a "send and say" in a zone setup, I hear nothing. But, the when tripped the alarm siren is heard loud and clear.
 
 
Why... so many gremlins? Ugh. I knew the Elk would have a bit of a learning curve, but this is a bit maddening.
 

RAL

Senior Member
For the voice message, check the voice volume system setting on the keypad menu 8-82 and also all the global system settings in menu 7, G14-G25 (especially G19 - Suppress all voice).
 
If all your keypad wiring is done with 4-conductor cable, how have you wired up the data bus.  It would help if you can post a diagram so we can see if you've done it correctly.  The data bus can only have two branches, with all the devices on each branch daisy chained together.
 
Which wireless receiver do you have? 
 
One thing to be careful of is to mount the receiver some distance away from the M1, and not right next to it, to reduce the chance of RF interference between them.
 
If you aren't sure of the age of the batteries in the keyfobs, try replacing them with ones that you know are fresh.  Some of the batteries that came with the transmitters from the factory seemed to have been sitting on the shelf for a while.
 

rhosch

Member
Ok, first of all I must be part idiot. The key fobs seem to work and from plenty of distance. I just didn't see written anywhere that you had to hold the button down for like a full second or so before it successfully transmits the signal. I must have been pressing the buttons too briefly at first. Who knew?

The voice still stumps me. Global 19 is unchecked, and the enables 20-25 are all checked. G14 is unchecked, 15-18 all have non-zero volume settings between 3 and 7. Not entirely sure what keypad settings 8-82 correspond to looking at the navigator keypad, but when I go into system settings the voice volume is 3. There are vocab words selected for every zone. Enable chime is checked, which works through the keypads (I don't get a chime through main speaker, which is what I'd expect).

Speaking of the keypad, it requests a valid user code to get into system settings, and the user code I have set works just fine. That code just won't disarm the system. When I go to that user profile in the RP software, all user authorizations are checked, including arm and disarm.

As for wiring, I am close to but not identical to the recommended method. There are two devices in or adjacent to the control. This is the hardwired zone expander and the KP2 keypad which I installed in the network closet adjacent to the M1 to assist in setup and debugging. These two do not have termination jumpers installed. The KPNAV and wireless receiver (M1XRFTWM hardware 7.3 boot 1.0.8 firmware 1.2.62) are remote from the control (which is hardware .13 boot 3.3.6 firmware 5.3.10). Those remotely located devices do have terminal jumpers.

Technically, according to the installation diagram, I should have a branch going to say the zone expander and then from there to say the wireless receiver. Likewise a branch to KP2 then from there to KPNAV. However, out of convenience, the connection is made at the control board instead of at those local devices. The 4 conductor wire runs from control to those local devices is about 1 foot, so electrically there is essentially zero difference. Not exactly zero, but danged near it. Would be surprised if that's causing the weird user code issue but I am going to change that connection point just to be sure. For the king term, I ordered the data hub because anything past 4 devices in my current wiring scheme would be very cumbersome and I'd like it to be easy in case I want to add on down the road.

BTW - thanks again for the assistance. This is a very capable system but it's sort of 1980's system design and not entirely intuitive. For a security device, maybe that's a good thing.
 

rhosch

Member
OK, one more gremlin exterminated. We have currently an echo 71 siren on second floor, an echo 73 speaker on the first. The security dealer who worked the house mislabeled first and second floor sirens, so the siren only has been connected to voice output the entire time.

After eliminating everything I could think of, verifying the speaker/siren was compatible lead to me double checking continuity to make sure they were labeled properly.

Geez.

Now to sort out the disarm issue. I have verified that both keypads refuse to disarm with that code. There is some acknowledgement that the code is a valid user code because it is the only code that triggers that beep and little timer animation. It's almost as if that code doesn't have disarm permission but I can't see why that would be the case.
 

RAL

Senior Member
rhosch said:
Now to sort out the disarm issue. I have verified that both keypads refuse to disarm with that code. There is some acknowledgement that the code is a valid user code because it is the only code that triggers that beep and little timer animation. It's almost as if that code doesn't have disarm permission but I can't see why that would be the case.
It's possible that the user code has been disabled for disarming the system.  This is Menu 02, option 03 on the keypad menu, or one of the check boxes in the User Authorization menu in RP2.
 

RAL

Senior Member
rhosch said:
In RP it appears the user code has permissions for everything. Every box is checked.
Are you certain that what you have in RP was successfully sent to the M1?  The two can be out of sync and what you see in RP is not really what's in the M1.  Double check it by using the keypad menu to view the settings for the user code. 
 
By any chance are you trying to use the installer code to disarm?  The installer code can be used to disarm an area only if it was armed by the installer code.
 
Have you tried arming and disarming using the master code, or some other user code?
 

rhosch

Member
I started with just one used and one user code. I actually used the keypad to change the code. It accepted the old code and let me set a new code. It refused to accept either old or new to disarm the system. I set it back to my original code, no change.

I created a second user just to make sure. Same result. So, the problem is either unrated to a specific user and or code, or my user error is just duplicated each time. Given my experience with the voice out and wireless keyfob, I recognize that is still the most likely explanation! I just don't understand what that might be.

Definitely not using the installer code. I haven't tried the master code... seems like I saw that in the M1 installation and programming manual somewhere? I'll give that a shot and see what happens.

Oh, btw, the retailer where I ordered the retrofit datahub sent a refund, said they were out of stock and it had been discontinued with no replacement from Elk. Great. Maybe I'll look around and see if I can find one in stock somewhere. May really come in handy in the future if I add another keypad or something.
 

RAL

Senior Member
rhosch said:
I started with just one used and one user code. I actually used the keypad to change the code. It accepted the old code and let me set a new code. It refused to accept either old or new to disarm the system. I set it back to my original code, no change.

I created a second user just to make sure. Same result. So, the problem is either unrated to a specific user and or code, or my user error is just duplicated each time. Given my experience with the voice out and wireless keyfob, I recognize that is still the most likely explanation! I just don't understand what that might be.

Definitely not using the installer code. I haven't tried the master code... seems like I saw that in the M1 installation and programming manual somewhere? I'll give that a shot and see what happens.

Oh, btw, the retailer where I ordered the retrofit datahub sent a refund, said they were out of stock and it had been discontinued with no replacement from Elk. Great. Maybe I'll look around and see if I can find one in stock somewhere. May really come in handy in the future if I add another keypad or something.
You've got me stumped.  What firmware level is on the M1?  Did you purchase the M1 new, or used?
 
The only other thing I can think of is to do a factory reset of the panel and start from scratch.
 
If you're looking for a M1DBHR, try eBay.  Here's a used one at a good price.  And here's a new one at less than list price.
 
Top