Unique Automation Project

[chrishet]

Hi all. This is my first post and I am new to the whole home automation thing...lots of structured wiring and audio/video.....

I am building a remote telescope observatory (cool huh!). I have already constructed my building with the exception of the the interior walls. The primary automation challenge is to control a 4 amp motor that will roll-off the roof of the observatory (this is to expose the scopes to the night sky). I'll need other controls like lighting, photoelectric sensors, security.....and the key here is it must be controlable remotely (i.e. via the internet) and without relying on a local PC (in case the power or DSL goes out). There is also a requirement that I communicate with the mount (serial commands) to be sure the scope is in the correct position before I roll the roof open/close.

I've been primarily looking at a HAI Omni IIe. It has some nice features and includes a pretty nice web interfaces. I am a bit disappointed with the programing language, not very robust, and it is kinda expensive...

I just started looking at the ELK products. Looks like the programming logic might be better but I haven't seen thier remote web interface yet.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Chris
http://hetlage.com

 

[KenM]

I have to ask.

What type of imager(s) do you plan on using.

I spent a few years working at SpectraSource in Westlake village California as an assembly/test technician. I loved that job. They were bought out by a Canadian company.

Just curious.

Ken

Edit added:

By the way guys, this is some very serious scientific type of stuff. The cameras that I worked on went either to astronomy or genetics. I routinely answered customer service calls to some Doctor stuck on a mountain top somewhere.

To do this as a hobby is, well, let's help chrishet out as best we can.

k

 

[WayneW]

I think the Elk would work well there. Did you have any specific concerns or questions?

 

[Mike]

How were you considering handling the power going out? It seems like you had something in mind there, was it battery backup for the controller and something similar for the motors and such?

Then you mention about still being able to control by the internet if the dsl goes out, how were you considering doing the remote control, via phone line (and can it be touch tone?)?

 

[chrishet]

I have to ask.

What type of imager(s) do you plan on using.

I spent a few years working at SpectraSource in Westlake village California as an assembly/test technician. I loved that job. They were bought out by a Canadian company.

Just curious.

Ken

Edit added:

By the way guys, this is some very serious scientific type of stuff. The cameras that I worked on went either to astronomy or genetics. I routinely answered customer service calls to some Doctor stuck on a mountain top somewhere.

To do this as a hobby is, well, let's help chrishet out as best we can.

k

Hi Ken, that does sound like a cool job.....Here is a link to my site with some pics that I have taken... http://hetlage.com

Appreciate the feedback....

 

[chrishet]

How were you considering handling the power going out? It seems like you had something in mind there, was it battery backup for the controller and something similar for the motors and such?

Then you mention about still being able to control by the internet if the dsl goes out, how were you considering doing the remote control, via phone line (and can it be touch tone?)?

Thanks for all the help guys.

The ELK looks pretty good but I haven't seen it, I have seen a few HAI units in action. I have also seen an demo of thier Web interface which looks impressive. The ELK looks similar in specs but I just haven't seen any decent remote monitoring aps using it. I'm going to read the manual this weekend to see if the scripting language is more robust then the HAI

All I am concerned with is automating the observatory at this time. I have all the systems in place to control my scope, camera...and all the imaging stuff. So what I am working on is a control system just for the building itself.

In terms of power I do plan on having a UPS system for backup. I'll need one with enough strength to move the motor obviously.

Here is an email I wrote to a few buddys describing my design (or at least my hopes...). Thanks again folks for the help....


Subject: Observatory Control Center

Hi guys, I have been working on an Observatory Control Center for my obs and would appreciate any comments on this before I go out and spend the $....I met with a consultant yesterday who is interested in working with me to possibly package and resell this setup. It looks pretty simple to install but is very robust in features and ability to customize.

The system I have designed includes the following attributes;

1) No local PC required, but PC can be used if needed to program and control. The device I am considering has a Web, Windows and Media Center Edition user interface.

2) Ability control observatory even if power and/or DSL is lost. System can be fully controlled via internet but can also use a phone-in user interface which can perform automated functions by simply pressing buttons.

3) Ability to control observatory automation remotely via web interface, controllable from anywhere, anytime.

4) Ability to custom define schemes - for example System Start Scheme will power up computer, turn on fans, power up scope, open roof, turn on red lights, turn off while lights. Another scheme might be Red Lights Only which will power off all while lights and turn on red lights to 50% with a press of a single button.

5) Security System - windows, doors, motion detection.... Alerts will sound an alarm on-site, notify a service, if desired (in turn will notify the local police or fire, or anyone you desire) as well as send an email/text message. Arm/Disarm functions also via the internet or via telephone

6) Lighting Control - Remote control of all lights/schemes via the PC/internet/phone, as well as a single point of control option (simple keypad) for all lights in the observatory.

7) Roof Motor Control - can open and close roof via motor control relay with safety checks along the way. If-then logic such as rain detection or power loss after xx minutes will instigate a Roof Close Command. Roof Open-Close Command will use serial connection to scope to check for mount park status and will send park command if needed - very important for power loss or DSL loss. Will verify scope park via photoelectric sensor before issuing Motor Close command. Motor will disconnect from power once opened to prevent motor overrun (roof location checked via photoelectric sensor and trigger switch) and when closed (also via photo sensor and trigger sw). Motor emergency override stop. Remote control functions via internet/phone (phone will be backup when DSL is unavailable or when traveling to site). Local control also via PC or keypad.

8) Camera Controls - pan/zoom via same internet control as above. Cameras in observatory and in control room pointed at CPU in case of remote desktop failure.

9) Computer/Scope/Appliances On/Off. Will be able to turn on/off power to any device in observatory via internet or phone, as well as the ability script sequences of these for automation.

Right now it is a fairly pricey solution - he wants $5k to develop and install the first one (I'm the guinea pig), however we think we can get the price down to $2500-$3500 once we have the thing built and operational.

What do ya think? What am I missing? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated….


Regards,
Chris Hetlage
Co-Founder, The Deer Lick Group, LLC
http://deerlickgroup.com
http://hetlage.com

 

[Steve]

Hi Chris,

You may want to give Martin or Jim at Automated Outlet a call. They are imho the best place to purchase stuff but my point is they have both the Elk and Omni and can maybe better guide you to a solution.

I am not too familiar with the Omni but I know its a good system that many pros use. Where they 'lose' points is in support for DIY as they are primarily a pro integrator focused company. Elk otoh has strong support for the DIY community and is probably a big reason they are so popular here. I am personally in the Antler camp.

The rules engine in Elk is good, but its weaknesses as discussed alot is no support of some conditionals such as OR. Usually it can be worked around with additional rules, but that takes up more of the limited space for rules. If your rules will be pretty straightforward then the Elk would most likely handle it with no problem.

You can control the Elk several different ways including via Internet and dialup. Here you can have a look at what the remote interface looks like. The Ethernet interface contains a web server and you use a Java app to talk to it simply by entering its ip addy. You can also dial into it and use its built in 'vru', but that is a bit crude. Somebody actually built a phone based menu which looked pretty cool, I'll see if I can find that post. Most of the stuff you would do would probably be controlled either by outputs (to control motors, the roof, etc) or one of the supported lighting protocols. You can group things into 'tasks' which you can access on the web interface so you can simply execute a task which can control motors, adjust lights, etc all by executing 1 task.

You can also use some 3rd party software like CQC or Mainlobby (may be overkill) and build graphic rich touchscreen interfaces to control the Elk or Omni as well. Might be nice to sit at a touchscreen remotely and simply press on certain images, etc to control the observatory. I can envision some really cool screens to do that. Obviously you can have one locally as well, but this would use a pc. Might be interesting to build a solid state pc to run one of these as a primary control method (just because its cool!) for both local and remote control, then use stuff like the Elk built in server, etc as a 'backup'.

Feel free to ask anything specific and good luck - sounds like fun!

 

[chrishet]

Thanks Steve, I really appreciate the tips and I will call these guys for some advice. It sure would be nice to see more logic in these devices, a conditional loop would also be nice. I'll keep ya'll in the loop as to how this proceeds.

 

[wuench]

Coming from a CompSci background, it pains me to see these devices with their limited rule languages and memory capacity. I realize these are hardware base controllers, but it seems to me the EE's building this stuff are really living in the past.

And I know they are trying to save on the system cost for Elk. But c'mon. I will probably end up spending $5000 on my security system by the time it is all said and done. I would not hesitate at buying an M1Gold (or M1Platinum) that had a flash drive, more memory capacity, robust rule engine, etc, not to mention a serial port with screw down terminals. for $1000 or maybe more

Don't get me wrong though, I love my M1G and I really think it is the best choice on the market. From your requirements, I think it will meet your needs. But I wouldn't go judging these systems by their web interface. I am not a fan of Elk's or Omni's. To get an attractive interface I think a software program and PC are required.

 

[chrishet]

Thanks for the feedback...it is a shame on the scripting front...perhaps someday soon...

The reason I am weighting the web interface so highly is that I will spend most of my time away from my observatory and will need to control it remotely. After some reading it appears that both the ELK and HAI remote software requires a PC serving the code, I was under the impression that the HAI code resided on the controller...hmmmm I'll need to think this one through...perhaps I will need to look at phone access/services a bit more as well....

This is a learning experience for sure...

Thanks all.

-Chris

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

After some reading it appears that both the ELK and HAI remote software requires a PC serving the code

The HAI does but not the Elk.

 

[huggy59]

I would think a decent single-board PC with flash drive running some stripped-down version of Linux would be an excellent, and relatively inexpensive, controller system for the entire setup. A unit with sleep mode would also draw minimal power when not running. You could still use the controllers for I/O and ports, developing a control program in your favorite scripting language (PHP, perl, etc.) wouldn't be too difficult, and you'd have all the logical capability you require, including interrupts.

Take a look at Circuit Cellar magazine/web site. They have many advertisers of such hardware.

http://www.circuitcellar.com/

http://www.circuitcellar.com/suppliers%5Fdir/SBC.asp

 

[upstatemike]

I would think a decent single-board PC with flash drive running some stripped-down version of Linux would be an excellent, and relatively inexpensive, controller system for the entire setup.

Kind of over-complicated and labor intensive. Why not just use a Stargate?

 

[electron]

I would think a decent single-board PC with flash drive running some stripped-down version of Linux would be an excellent, and relatively inexpensive, controller system for the entire setup. A unit with sleep mode would also draw minimal power when not running. You could still use the controllers for I/O and ports, developing a control program in your favorite scripting language (PHP, perl, etc.) wouldn't be too difficult, and you'd have all the logical capability you require, including interrupts.

Take a look at Circuit Cellar magazine/web site. They have many advertisers of such hardware.

http://www.circuitcellar.com/

http://www.circuitcellar.com/suppliers%5Fdir/SBC.asp

I am actually trying to turn a Linksys router (linux based) into a HA controller/add-on, just need to figure out how to get python or php on there.

 

[chrishet]

After some reading it appears that both the ELK and HAI remote software requires a PC serving the code

The HAI does but not the Elk.

Excellent! That does makes a difference...Thanks

The standalone remote operation and phone capabilities are very important here. If I am operating my telescope remotely and the power fails, or my DSL fails) I need to communicate some how with my observatory to park the scope and close the roof. Of course nothing is completely failsafe (which is what neighbors are good for <grin>).