UPB Install - lock-up problems

[geewiz]

I need some help. I installed 13 UPB switches (CLSW-01 and hai 35A00-1, 35A00-3, and 1 phase coupler 39A00-1) and a few plug-in modules for lamps 3 weeks ago and everything seemed to be working as I had expected it would. Soon after my system has locked up on me to the point where I get no response from any switch and then all of the sudden every button press will execute minutes and sometimes an hour or so later. I read or was told on the phone in calling tech support that my lutron dimmers might be the cause of this. I have since waited to do the rest of my house with UPB.

Has anyone run into this or know of what I can do?

thanks,
Mike

 

[upstatemike]

Wow! I've heard of latency issues with UPB but an hour?

 

[electron]

Welcome to CocoonTech Mike!

I am not an UPB expert, but have you tried turning off the breakers to the circuits which have Lutron hardware, and see if you still have the same problem? This is assuming that you only have a few of those switches, or this might be harder to do. I am sure other people who have plenty of UPB experience will chime in soon.

 

[Steve]

Mike,

You say 'soon after', was that minutes, hours, days or the whole 3 weeks? How long was it working right for? Have you checked signal strength and noise levels in UPStart? Also in UPStart, what happens when you do a network verify - does it find all your switches or do you have yellow boxes flashing all over and then many black (missing) switches? Did you always have the phase coupler installed, or did you add that after? What PIM are you using? I have had a PCS and HAI switch along with a Lutron dimmer and didn't see any issues. I'm using all SAI US2s now though.

If it worked properly for a while and now all of the sudden it doesn't, something has had to change. Is it always bad now or intermittent? It could be noise - check the meters built into UPStart. But having it work after a delay that long doesn't make sense. I think UPB will only retry 5 times.

Is this standalone, or is it being controlled by SW or a panel?

Sorry for so many questions, just trying to narrow it down...

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, I think I have a Lutron dimmer now on the same circuit, in the same box in fact as a 3way UPB dimmer. Everything works great except that particular switch does not respond at all to all on or all off commands, but works fine when addressed individually. I may have to pull that dimmer (was moved from somewhere else) and see if there is a change. If possible, do what Electron suggested and kill the circuit where the dimmer is if possible. Last resort you can always pull them out if needed - if we get to that point.

 

[geewiz]

Steve and Electron,

thank you for the suggestions. I have not had much time to try everything but let me try to elaborate. I hope to have time by the weekend to go over everything again. Steve, thanks for all of the questions. I noticed the lock-ups happening the day after installation. I will get to all of your questions this weekend.

Taking Electron's suggestion I turned off a few of the circuits where I have lutron dimmers (unfortunately I have them all over the house). I left 3 circuits off last night and did not have any issues with my UPB switches. I turned them back on this morning before I left and my wife called to tell my UPB is non responsive again. The only thing I can think of is either a bad lutron dimmer (which one? I have at least 25 I can count) but it does not make much sense to me. Come to think of it I have not seen this while the lutron dimmers are at 100% only when they are dimmed, less than 25% or so.

I hope to post more soon, the WAF is fading fast.

Mike

 

[rocco]

Come to think of it I have not seen this while the lutron dimmers are at 100% only when they are dimmed, less than 25% or so.

Now THAT just lit the light bulb over my head (don't worry, it's pretty low wattage).

UPB transmission takes place during the second half of each AC half-cycle, about three-quarters of the way to the next zero-crossing. One of the advantages of this is that the second half of the AC half-cycle (after the peak) is considered "quieter" than the first half, which is when most dimmers fire their triacs. The reason that most dimmers fire their triacs before the peak (which is the 50% dim level) is that most people don't dim their lights below 50% very often. But you're dimming to about 25%, which would put your Lutron triacs near where UPB is issuing it's pulses, which looks similar to triac noise. Something to experiment with . . .

 

[Steve]

If it shows up as noise it should be very evident in UPStart noise meter.

 

[geewiz]

Brad,

Thanks for the private message. You were right about the lutron dimmer being very dim making my UPB system wait to transmit. I did some quick experimenting and when I had even 1 lutron dimmer in the 10% on level range I could not send any commands. The scary part was after I either turned the dimmer off or fully on all of my commands would seemingly go in sequence. I didn’t realize the dimming of a Triac did this to upb because it is waiting for a polite time to transmit. I thought it was more reliable than this??

This makes me hesitant to expand because when I used X10 I did several conditionals at night and in the morning with very low dim levels. My wife is still not happy about it. Also, god forbid my neighbor dims his switch down to a level where my system does not respond.

Mike

 

[Mike]

I hope to post more soon, the WAF is fading fast.

I feel your pain there. Years back when I was experimenting with some X10 modules in an apartment (with very old wiring and I suspect some interesting circuits) I had lots of issues (noted it was x10).

I eventually took them out, but for years I think my wife started going into fits if she even saw an X10 module.

Fortunately she is very happy with Insteon. Good luck (sorry no UPB wisdom here).

 

[Steve]

Yeah, it kinda stinks that there is an interference problem. I know its obvious and not inexpensive, but if you replaced all the Lutron dimmers with UPB dimmers the problem would go away, you would be fully automated and WAF would rebound. Just target the ones that you dim the most to replace first. Other than my 1 circuit with the weird neutral, UPB has worked flawlessly for me for weeks now - not a single missed beat.

 

[UPBseer]

The scary part was after I either turned the dimmer off or fully on all of my commands would seemingly go in sequence. I didn’t realize the dimming of a Triac did this to upb because it is waiting for a polite time to transmit. I thought it was more reliable than this??

This makes me hesitant to expand because when I used X10 I did several conditionals at night and in the morning with very low dim levels. My wife is still not happy about it. Also, god forbid my neighbor dims his switch down to a level where my system does not respond.

Mike

Happy New Year.

The UPB devices wait for the "network" to be clear before transmittig to avoid collisions. They will hold the communication for a couple of minutes, maybe 5, before timing out. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the moment a dimmer's triac turns on it looks like a UPB pulse. If the pulse is in the same slot UPB is using to transmit it will interfere with UPB.

As far as your neighbors switches, that noise will probably attenuate before going across the transformer into your house. It should not be a problem. What is your signal level on the "other" phase without a phase coupler installed?

Brad