UPB lights and automation: Looking for some guidance

[beaumeri]

HI,

I have some UPB switches installed and my ELK will be installed this week-end. I'm planning to get a CQC server running shortly but now I have questions.

To what level of light automation did you set your systems? How far did you go?

It's one thing to install all the UPB hardware and program scenes but how do most people do for the advance automation?

--- 1 ---
If I want the light to turn on or off when I get into or out of a room. I'll need something to capture that condition in order to activate the light. For that I have door contact on every single door in the house.

But what if the door was left open? What if no one close the door and it was already open?

I'm thinking about installing "SPY4 - Visonic Spy 4 PIR Motion Detector Curtain" on each side of the door. Now I thing this would allow the system to detect people going in and out. and trigger the UPB lights properly.

Does this sound right so far? Any suggestion?


--- 2 ---
Now after I figure the in and out of the room to turn light on or off. How do you guys handle the amount of time to leave the light ON?

Do you set up a timer and the user have to override it by hitting the switch if they want it to stay on for a long period of time? Or should I install more sensors to detect presence (I know this one is tricky and was discussed over and over on this board). What do you folks do at the moment? I'm thinking about installing a "0-1111-0 - Visonic DISC Ceiling Mount 360 Degree PIR Motion Detector" in every room and this should help capturing the occupancy state of the room but we all know there is limitations like if people stay still.

I was also thinking about installing some "Sure Action Pulsor Stress Sensor" under some piece of furniture but I do not want to attach my furniture to the wall with wires. Unless there is a way to convert a "pulsor" sensor into some sort of wireless device?

-- 3 --

Long story short. I'm currently leaving alone and building the entire house by myself. I have the opportunity to install and tweak everything before I close most walls and I can take all the time required to do the proper set-up.

If anything (wire or sensor) need to be added I can do it easily.

Bottom line is: I'm currently trying to fully automate one room so I can replicate the set-up in others after. I'm hoping to control most of lights with minimal human interactions.

I believe when I'll be able to monitor presence in the house it'll be easy to add components to it like ambiance(music, shades, etc..)

Last but not least. I do have a budget and I could have hired a pro but this is my hobby and a really enjoy exploring possibilities. I'm willing to purchase any equipment within reason to do this.

I'll be starting a new post shortly with pictures and information on my build but in the mean time I need guidance.

Best Regards

Eric

 

[batwater]

HI,

I have some UPB switches installed and my ELK will be installed this week-end. I'm planning to get a CQC server running shortly but now I have questions.

To what level of light automation did you set your systems? How far did you go?

It's one thing to install all the UPB hardware and program scenes but how do most people do for the advance automation?

--- 1 ---
If I want the light to turn on or off when I get into or out of a room. I'll need something to capture that condition in order to activate the light. For that I have door contact on every single door in the house.

But what if the door was left open? What if no one close the door and it was already open?

I'm thinking about installing "SPY4 - Visonic Spy 4 PIR Motion Detector Curtain" on each side of the door. Now I thing this would allow the system to detect people going in and out. and trigger the UPB lights properly.

Does this sound right so far? Any suggestion?


--- 2 ---
Now after I figure the in and out of the room to turn light on or off. How do you guys handle the amount of time to leave the light ON?

Do you set up a timer and the user have to override it by hitting the switch if they want it to stay on for a long period of time? Or should I install more sensors to detect presence (I know this one is tricky and was discussed over and over on this board). What do you folks do at the moment? I'm thinking about installing a "0-1111-0 - Visonic DISC Ceiling Mount 360 Degree PIR Motion Detector" in every room and this should help capturing the occupancy state of the room but we all know there is limitations like if people stay still.

I was also thinking about installing some "Sure Action Pulsor Stress Sensor" under some piece of furniture but I do not want to attach my furniture to the wall with wires. Unless there is a way to convert a "pulsor" sensor into some sort of wireless device?

-- 3 --

Long story short. I'm currently leaving alone and building the entire house by myself. I have the opportunity to install and tweak everything before I close most walls and I can take all the time required to do the proper set-up.

If anything (wire or sensor) need to be added I can do it easily.

Bottom line is: I'm currently trying to fully automate one room so I can replicate the set-up in others after. I'm hoping to control most of lights with minimal human interactions.

I believe when I'll be able to monitor presence in the house it'll be easy to add components to it like ambiance(music, shades, etc..)

Last but not least. I do have a budget and I could have hired a pro but this is my hobby and a really enjoy exploring possibilities. I'm willing to purchase any equipment within reason to do this.

I'll be starting a new post shortly with pictures and information on my build but in the mean time I need guidance.

Best Regards

Eric

Hi Eric,

Since you are going with CQC I strongly encourage you to post on the forum there. There are a number of us CQCers that frequent both forums but you will get maximum exposers from a CQC perspective by posting there. Here you will get the widest hardware options perspective.

I have not done this yet myself but based on what I have observed from other's postings re CQC handling this they essentially set up a flag for each room and a count down timer and/or a last movement captured timestamp and script activities based on that timestamp, once the "occupied interval" elapses the occupancy flag is set to false and "something" happens. I'm probably over simplifying since I have not yet done this myself but that is the basic idea. Scrpting control can be either very simple or extremely sophisticated based on your requirements.

You might consider mocking a room up on a work bench (basically just the sensors you want to use) without having to install in a real room to get the feel for what you are trying to accomplish.

-Ben

 

[ano]

I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting "motion detectors" to be a substitute for "occupancy detectors." You can try, but automation will never approach the reliability of a human turning a light switch on or off. Motion detectors are designed to trip security systems when intruders are in your house. That is it.

The best you can do with these is turn on lights when you enter a room and turn off lights after a period of inactivity. One warning with that, though, is that there will be some delay between the time the detector detects motion, and the time that CQC issues the UPB command to turn on the light. In my bedroom, for example, I trigger motion leading to the hallway leading to the bedroom to turn on the bedroom light. That gives me a few seconds advanced notice to get the lights on. If motion isn't then detected in the bedroom, I turn the lights out. You need to take these delays into account when planning your programming. By the time motion occurs in a room, the lights need to already me on.

 

[beaumeri]

I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting "motion detectors" to be a substitute for "occupancy detectors." You can try, but automation will never approach the reliability of a human turning a light switch on or off. Motion detectors are designed to trip security systems when intruders are in your house. That is it.

The best you can do with these is turn on lights when you enter a room and turn off lights after a period of inactivity. One warning with that, though, is that there will be some delay between the time the detector detects motion, and the time that CQC issues the UPB command to turn on the light. In my bedroom, for example, I trigger motion leading to the hallway leading to the bedroom to turn on the bedroom light. That gives me a few seconds advanced notice to get the lights on. If motion isn't then detected in the bedroom, I turn the lights out. You need to take these delays into account when planning your programming. By the time motion occurs in a room, the lights need to already me on.

So I should always plan to use the various switches more then detection to control light. Alternatively I should set timers on certain room so if the light are left on then dim lower after x minutes then turn off after X more minutes.

Or If main door is open open entry lights.

So I should focus on controlling some events instead of trying to have full automation of light with minimal human interventions.

I get the general idea. Thanks for your feedback.

 

[batwater]

So I should always plan to use the various switches more then detection to control light. Alternatively I should set timers on certain room so if the light are left on then dim lower after x minutes then turn off after X more minutes.

Or If main door is open open entry lights.

So I should focus on controlling some events instead of trying to have full automation of light with minimal human interventions.

I get the general idea. Thanks for your feedback.

The most successful I have seen discused used the timers. In addition to the timers you could use motions as a backup to reset the timer interval. The story I like to share regarding motion light sensors is this... To save energy my company decided to install motion sensors in the restrooms such that after a period of time and no activity the lights would go out. This plan of course was well thougth out by some very talented engineers. Unfortunately what was not taken into consideration was "period of time" and stall height thusly after a long stint in the "library" the lights went out and you had to hop up and wave your arms to get lighting again. As you can imagine, a normal switch was installed. Same complex, same engineers, put the things our offices. Again, great idea, however, what was not considered was that it is possible for someone to sit still enough while working on a computer to have the lights go on them thus resulting in a spastic waving of body parts to get lighting back. Same result, they switches were removed...

I use sensors only. I have sensors on most of my interior doors and all of my windows. I use these to indicate open / closed state for numerous purposes. Automated lighting - Walk in closet and hallway coat closet, turn the light on when the door is opened and off when closed, this makes practical sense, wife loves it. Workshop lighting (just enough to illuminate to find often used stuff, 2 incandescent bulbs, main florescent fixtures are not turned on) again, very pratical. The other door / window sensors are used to indicate whether they are open or closed. Garage door, that's easy. Pets - I have 2 dogs and 2 cats that I may be interested in either containing or not trapping depending on circumstances. The dogs are kept in basement when we are not at home, so I am very interested in whether the basement stairs door is closed before we leave. The cats are not allowed in our bedroom thus I am very interested in whether or not the door is kept closed. At feeding time I have to separate the cats, one is incarcerated in my media room thus I am interested if he is trapped in there too long. Windows, are there any open and is it raining or, are they open and the A/C is on, do something about it. All of these are examples of particular situations that I wish to manage / monitor. Also, I am in the process of developing an architectural view that will display opening and light statuses - mainly for the cool factor but also from a practical standpoint, bedtime routine or leaving for vacation routine, what's the status of my homes openings.

Complete automation of lighting based on occupancy is a noble persuit but sensing accuracy is the name of the game and the technology is just not there yet in a practical way. You definetly don't want to irritate your family with faulty automation behavior, nothing will turn them off faster to being supportive of your hobby than lights going off at the wrong time...

My 2 cents.
-Ben

 

[tmbrown97]

The story I like to share regarding motion light sensors is this... To save energy my company decided to install motion sensors in the restrooms such that after a period of time and no activity the lights would go out. This plan of course was well thougth out by some very talented engineers. Unfortunately what was not taken into consideration was "period of time" and stall height thusly after a long stint in the "library" the lights went out and you had to hop up and wave your arms to get lighting again. As you can imagine, a normal switch was installed. Same complex, same engineers, put the things our offices. Again, great idea, however, what was not considered was that it is possible for someone to sit still enough while working on a computer to have the lights go on them thus resulting in a spastic waving of body parts to get lighting back. Same result, they switches were removed...

These switches are required in commercial installations by code in California - there's no ripping them out... so it's almost normal to time your "library" time such that you can get out in time. What makes things worse is that most of these sensors have two timing windows - if you run into the stall you activate the "short" window and after about a minute they turn off; whereas if there's been activity for a few minutes, it goes into the longer window where you have a good 5-10 minutes.

I have to agree - until occupancy sensors can detect 100% still people they're not ready for automation. They still only detect motion and someone still enough will defeat them. Even the counting of people - sounds great at first, but carry a loved one across the threshold, or have kids that want to be carried - and that goes to crap real quick.

We use common sense logic - if the bathroom lights are on more than 20 minutes, turn them off. If the shower lights are on more than 45, turn them off. For the bathrooms the kids use (they can't reach the switches) - I use el-cheapo X10RF motion sensors via an W800RF32 to turn the lights on during entrance and off after 4 minutes (my baby sis recently informed me that they don't detect her in the shower, so after 4 minutes she's in the dark until she exits - oh well... keeps the showers shorter!). Closets have sensors on the doors with auto-cutoffs as well; garage has combination doors/motion logic.

For closets/pantry, door sensors turn the lights on and off; if you don't close the door, the light turns off anyways after 20 mins.

I don't expect to stop using switches; I just expect to not have as many consequences for not turning lights off.


Also - for my normal always-on lights, I put them on LED - costs next-to-nothing.

 

[tmbrown97]

To add to that... when we get occupancy detectors that can track people, we can finally get real elder-care tracking. Being able to track a person who comes into a room, then "goes cold" will let you know when a person really need immediate attention; and being able to really tell how many people enter a room and leave a room (even if their heat combines into a single blob - for the cuddling types) - then we can set up some truly awesome automation. Until then, my wife and I are the types that would rather use 2 separate remotes for the Tivo and BluRay vs. using something with Macro that can screw up.

 

[beaumeri]

Thanks you all your inputs.. It let me put my expectation back to where it should be. Still going to be pretty fun to do !!! :rockon:

 

[batwater]

Thanks you all your inputs.. It let me put my expectation back to where it should be. Still going to be pretty fun to do !!! :rockon:

That's what it is all about, fun! I just added our hallway coat closet to the system, door open, light on, door closed, light off, my Wife loves it. Score!

-Ben

 

[tmbrown97]

I just added our hallway coat closet to the system, door open, light on, door closed, light off, my Wife loves it. Score!

Did that one too... added bonus - got to steal that switch location for a scene switch!