UPB or Z-Wave with the M1

[tmbrown97]

All,

so, I think I'm suffering a little from Information Overload... reading through pages and pages and pages of the forums, I thought I had a clear picture of the technologies, and a few months ago, even before installing my M1, I chose UPB as my protocol of choice... but now I have a couple of Z-wave devices, and a couple of UPB devices - sitting in my electronics box, and I haven't figured out which one to go with. I only want to pick one because I don't feel like trying to support multiple... so, I want to double check a few things. Part of this, I think, is that some of the information I was reading may have been out of date as well...

Initially, I thought UPB was cool because of the switch options - especially the SAI ones with the different paddle configurations. I've since decided away from that, as I'll probably just put in larger gang boxes and give each function its own switch. Also, I doubt I'll do much else z-wave, as I already have the HAI thermostat on the M1, and I just bought some X10 remotes and DS10's, and am going to do the W800 interface soon so I can map these X10 signals into other fun things. So, questions:

1. Looks like the Z-Wave switches can work without a common wire if necessary (I have a couple areas that don't have a common).
2. Can Z-Wave do multi-tap like the UPB can? I'd love it if a multi-tap on one hall-light switch could control the other hall... or a multi-tap on the patio light might turn the pool light off. Etc. Or - be able to do single-tap to preset dim level, and multi-tap to full brightness (Most of the house is CFL - very few dim).
3. Does the elk reliably track the status of the lights, no matter how they're activated?
4. Does the Elk use the M1XZW still, or is that better handled through another CIM and another serial port like UPB?
5. Is there a Z-Wave Fan speed control? Not sure if I care, but would be cool to be able to adjust speed if desired.
6. Does Z-Wave have the short delay like UPB that people talk about in the Gen1 devices?

Basically, it seems like the Z-Wave switches are cheaper too - which helps... and as far as switches go, I prefer simple-return to neutral switches - looks like the ViziaRF is clean looking.

All in all, I don't even completely remember all the reasons I chose UPB - but I want to get it right before I go buy enough to complete my initial project, which is to run 2 cieling fans where I can't get new wires where I want them, so borrowing the common off a neighboring switch would be ideal... then 2 3-way circuits and a 4-way circuit plus about 3 individual switches.

I'll keep reading, but my brain hurts... so any help or gotcha's I haven't yet identified would be appreciated. I was considering the switch to Z-Wave because I don't want to worry about powerline reliability, phase couplers, etc - and as I mentioned, I use all CFL's, flourescents, etc - and even some of those in-wall LED's that people have had issues with - so I'd rather not have to go through all that if it's avoidable.

 

[DeLicious]

1. there are certain brands of Z-wave switches that do not require a common, but i don't remember which ones. you'll have to check the installation instructions.
2. z-wave does not do multitap
3. for UPB, no, it does not track activation. for most Z-wave, this is also the case. however, I think it does track Z-wave activations if you are using an RZCOP and johnny9's lumenlink application to build the z-wave table, but again, i'm not sure.
4. the Elk still CAN use the M1XZW, but I believe it's discouraged among the community for poorer performance. i believe they use a very early version of the zwave chip. the better alternative is as mentioned above with the RZCOP, but requires the 3rd party software and a special version of firmware for the M1XSP.
5. i don't know... i don't think so.
6. having used both protocols, i would say yes, they both have the delay. the UPB delay in Gen-I devices stems from the fact that it waits a split second to see if you have multi-tapped a button before sending a signal. the z-wave delay generally stems from communication time if it takes several hops to reach a destination. the upb delay is at least consistent. with z-wave i often get almost immediate response, but sometimes get delays longer than i ever got with UPB.

 

[hucker]

The older generation UPB switches do have that annoying delay. The newer switches from SAI have a delay that is 400msec instead of 750 and that crosses the 'it is good enough' threshold. As a vocal hater of the Gen1 delay's the newer switches are great.

My 50+ switch/relay/multi vendor UPB setup was worked solid for about a year. During the install I had a DOA switch and a relay module die everything else has worked very well. The UPB is integrated with a HomeVision controller and has worked well also.

I do like the SAI changeable switch plates. Mostly for things I've changed after the install. I've had three instances where I've change a single paddle to a double paddle to get control to a new location. Very cool.

 

[upstatemike]

Also remember that with Z-Wave:

Links are directed device to device communications that make it hard to use a central controller to monitor device state changes

Devices depend on a routing tables built from signal strength readings so making changes (even moving a plug-in module) becomes a complicated process

All brands share common functionality but extended features are specific to the manufacturer. Since each Z-Wave network needs a master controller, you could be stuck with only using advanced features from devices that are the same brand as the master controller.

 

[tmbrown97]

Good to know guys - thank you. Sounds like I should probably suck it up and just try my UPB stuff to see how it works. Initially I also didn't like the lack of wireless remotes, but the W800 into the M1 should aleviate that.

One question - you said the newer SAI switches aren't as bad with the delay - does that mean the Web Mountain ones, or even the currently available US240?

 

[hucker]

Good to know guys - thank you. Sounds like I should probably suck it up and just try my UPB stuff to see how it works. Initially I also didn't like the lack of wireless remotes, but the W800 into the M1 should aleviate that.

One question - you said the newer SAI switches aren't as bad with the delay - does that mean the Web Mountain ones, or even the currently available US240?

I have new US240's and 140's and they have the adjustable delay (that for some reason defaults to the longest possible!). Make sure you are getting version 1.13 of the 240's as that is where they shortened the delay. I am almost 100% positive that the web mountain switches have the improved response time, I know they are GenII which is supposed to be better for working in tough electrical environments. Look for posts by Lightenup for more details.

 

[sharby]

BottomLine:

Go with UPB (GEN II). I've been installing UPB for over 2 years and if you want solid RELIABLE communication, choose UPB. I suggest you use Generation II (GEN II) switches from Web Mountain or PCS (Pulseworx) for reliablility through noise. I use Powerhome with my ELK M1G and I have 99% reliability with the system checking to make sure that the lights turned on. There is endless technical support from Web Mountain, Pulseworx, ELK, Cocoontech, and Powerhome (including myself) that will guarantee that you will have reliable lighting within your house.

-=*Sharby*=-

 

[drozwood90]

UPB...

Yes, it just works!

The only bad thing about UPB is the neutral.

--Dan

 

[DeLicious]

It just works... for everyone but me... but as far as I know, I'm the only one that ever complained of complete intermittent system failures among all switches for unknown reasons.

 

[dougmeredith]

It just works... for everyone but me... but as far as I know, I'm the only one that ever complained of complete intermittent system failures among all switches for unknown reasons.

I've also got intermittent problems with UPB. It worked fine for the first few months and then became somewhat erratic. I have finally identified the cause, although not a solution. I put a sub panel in a building about 100' from the house and ran power from the main panel. This caused a significant drop in UPB signal strength within the house. Note: it didn't introduce noise, it reduced signal strength. I can test this by turning off the breaker that goes to the sub-panel. If the breaker is on, the signal is weak enough that some messages don't make it across phases through the SAI phase coupler. Shut the breaker off and all is well.

Doug

 

[bmil]

My UPB/Elk M1 system is also less than 100% reliable (main panel w/ sub right next to main). Several switches suffer from low signal and therefore intermittent command success. Tried a mixture of single/multiple phase couplers and even the expensive PCS coupler/signal repeater. Right now my best results is with an HAI coupler in each panel while using an SA PIM. Very frustrating since UPB is replacing my original Insteon setup where I wasted $$$$$$ on that disaster.

With a less than 100% reliable UPB system the problem is that the M1 XSP apparently has no capability to require an ACK from the switch, so if an ON command fails the M1 still considers the light to be on and doesn't resend the command. I've had to mitigate this by using HomeSeer to control my lighting (plugin can look for an ACK and resend command if it fails). Obviously this results in a longer delay where a motion detector on the M1 has to report to HomeSeer which then turns on a light.

It would be great if the M1 XSP coding had the capability to resend a UPB command if it doesn't receive an ACK. (even better if I could get the UPB setup close to 100% reliable on it's own).

 

[comet48]

It just works... for everyone but me... but as far as I know, I'm the only one that ever complained of complete intermittent system failures among all switches for unknown reasons.

I've also got intermittent problems with UPB. It worked fine for the first few months and then became somewhat erratic. I have finally identified the cause, although not a solution. I put a sub panel in a building about 100' from the house and ran power from the main panel. This caused a significant drop in UPB signal strength within the house. Note: it didn't introduce noise, it reduced signal strength. I can test this by turning off the breaker that goes to the sub-panel. If the breaker is on, the signal is weak enough that some messages don't make it across phases through the SAI phase coupler. Shut the breaker off and all is well.

Doug

I understand the Gen 1's are better for increased signal strength, whereas Gen 2 are better for handling noise. That's what simply automated told me, and is the reason they give for staying with Gen 1

 

[comet48]

My UPB/Elk M1 system is also less than 100% reliable (main panel w/ sub right next to main). Several switches suffer from low signal and therefore intermittent command success. Tried a mixture of single/multiple phase couplers and even the expensive PCS coupler/signal repeater. Right now my best results is with an HAI coupler in each panel while using an SA PIM. Very frustrating since UPB is replacing my original Insteon setup where I wasted $$$$$$ on that disaster.

With a less than 100% reliable UPB system the problem is that the M1 XSP apparently has no capability to require an ACK from the switch, so if an ON command fails the M1 still considers the light to be on and doesn't resend the command. I've had to mitigate this by using HomeSeer to control my lighting (plugin can look for an ACK and resend command if it fails). Obviously this results in a longer delay where a motion detector on the M1 has to report to HomeSeer which then turns on a light.

It would be great if the M1 XSP coding had the capability to resend a UPB command if it doesn't receive an ACK. (even better if I could get the UPB setup close to 100% reliable on it's own).

I agree - Elk does not handle it's communications with UPB well. The protocol supports the ACK, but ELK does not support it!

 

[drozwood90]

I understand the Gen 1's are better for increased signal strength, whereas Gen 2 are better for handling noise. That's what simply automated told me, and is the reason they give for staying with Gen 1

Maybe that's why I have not had a problem...

I'm only Gen1

--Dan

 

[tmbrown97]

guys - not the responses I want to hear! oh well... I'm going to put my first two UPB switches in this weekend. I don't have the stuff to make the M1 talk to it yet, but I need the remote control. I guess I'll see... Unfortunately, I don't have any buildings 100ft. off the house (except maybe my neighbor), so maybe I'll get lucky there - but, I have 1 sub panel today, and will be adding another one in a few months.