UPB Questions and Clarifications

[CalypsoCowboy]

I'm working on narrowing down lighting choices and had a few UPB questions. My plan is to have dimmers in all the rooms and then where I want a controller, add a gang and put the controller in there rather than having a switch control a load and scenes. I'm thinking two will make it easier to understand.

I understand the new Simply Automated US240 switch bodies have the new shorter programmable delay.
1. Do the US11-40 have the same shorter delay?
2. Do the HAI switches 35A00-1 have the same shorter delay?
3. If not what is the shortest delay on the HAI switches?

4. Are there any features on just the standard dimmers that the HAI have over the SA switches or vice versa?

5. Are there any UPB dimmers that have a light bar on the side that shows the light level? Something more than just a led that it is off or on?

6. Do any of the Simply Automated controller faceplates have individual lights that light up for each scene? Or is there just the one status led for the controlled load?

7. I understand the HAI scene controllers do light when presses. Any issues with mixing the HAI scene controllers and SA dimmers?

8. I see SA has a basic starter kit with two switches and one controller. The switches are the US11-30 variety. Can the basic starter kit be ordered with the US11-40 switches? I think the 40 swtiches have the green blue leds.

9. On the scene controllers, if I activate a scene by pressing a button, and then press the same button, does it deactivate the scene? If I activate another scene, and then press the first scene what happens? Or does this vary by scene controller?

I was orginally looking at RadioRA and I still may go that route as the switches aren't much more spendy, it's the controllers, and interfaces, that make RadioRA more pricey than UPB.

-Josh

 

[Steve]

1. Yes, they should
2. I don't believe HAI has announced any changes, so no
3. I thought it was 750ms but I could be wrong
4. Maybe a hair smaller. The all have different color LEDs and they 'feel' a little different. SAI's have the changeable faceplates where HAI does not
5. Not at this time but I believe there is at least 1 mfg working on one
6. No, SAI does not have a lighted controller at this time, only HAI and PCS, but SAI does have the combo/changeable faceplates, not just 6 or 8 button
7. I believe the button lights when ANY of the connected loads are on and it should not matter what brand
8. I believe there are several starter kits. US11 is single faceplate only 30 is old firmware and colors, 40 is new. US2-40 is already new colr and latest batches with new firmware I believe.
9. Not sure exactly.

But as much as I like SAI, I would seriously consider the new PCS Gen II stuff. It has been updated with new colors (Blue), reduced delay, improved controller button/light control, improved noise sensitivity, etc.

 

[rmcneil]

CalypsoCowboy asked:
1. Do the US11-40 have the same shorter delay?

After searching all over to try to find out which devices had this new configurability and how it was accessed, I downloaded Upstart and played with it for a while. The results were mixed. I downloaded version 4.8 from PCS and 4.7 from SA.

The Device configuration (Edit) allows you to set the "Local Response Time" from the Options tab for a few devices. I specifically noted that the following SA devices could have the response time altered:
US2-40
US22-40T
US1-40(T)
The US1-40 non-timer didn't allow for this setting. There was no US11-40 listing.

Even though the Web Mountain website says they have a SW-2 switch which can have the response time altered, no SW-2 was available in Upstart.

Even though PCS has released press statements regarding Gen-II and the new faster response time, I could not find a PCS switch in the available switches that would allow me to adjust the response time. The only choices were WS1 and WS1E. The WS1D was not a choice. Perhaps the switches now default to the 300ms time and are not configurable?

I obviously am not a UPB expert as I still haven't made the plunge and have zero experience with the Upstart software, so I'd welcome input from the UPB guys.

RM

 

[rmcneil]

As a follow-up to my prior post, I'm going to copy my post from earlier today that I left in RemoteCentral. This group may be better able to help me and others figure out whether the Gen-II stuff will help solve the delay issues that cause the poor WAF.

UPB devotees:

How has Gen II affected the biggest complaint about UPB, the delay between pushing the switch and getting operation? (I'm only referring to operation of the loaded switch itself. not network delays.)

I'm still waiting for someone to justify the high "test" cost to try out UPB. The "delay" while it waits to check for a doubletap sounds like it will not meet WAF, so I'm really hesitant to jump in.

Why is it that Simply Automated will sell a potential dealer an Advanced Startup kit for $150, but no such offer is available for end-users to get them hooked? End users have to shell out $400 or more! Then, after shelling out $400 and a day setting up and installing, if you (or more importantly, the SO) don't like it, you have to spend the time to remove/replace it with the next test product and the stuff isn't returnable since it has been installed.

Frankly, Insteon, Z-Wave, etc should have better intro packages as well.

Sorry, I'm done ranting...for now

RM

 

[DeLicious]

i'm hardly an expert either, but i do have a bit of experience with upb.

the web mountain stuff probably won't show up in upstart since it is just re-branded SAI stuff...

as for the intro kits, i'm an end user, and i was able to buy two from two different retailers (don't tell, okay?). they're out there if you look hard enough.

 

[hucker]

Why is it that Simply Automated will sell a potential dealer an Advanced Startup kit for $150, but no such offer is available for end-users to get them hooked? End users have to shell out $400 or more! Then, after shelling out $400 and a day setting up and installing, if you (or more importantly, the SO) don't like it, you have to spend the time to remove/replace it with the next test product and the stuff isn't returnable since it has been installed.

RM

Because I'd buy 10 starter kits

 

[jasv]

i'm hardly an expert either, but i do have a bit of experience with upb.

the web mountain stuff probably won't show up in upstart since it is just re-branded SAI stuff...

as for the intro kits, i'm an end user, and i was able to buy two from two different retailers (don't tell, okay?). they're out there if you look hard enough.

I've bought some webmountain stuff and it shows up on UPBStart just fine but with a manufacture ID of OEM.

 

[DeLicious]

oops... what i meant to say is that web mountain stuff won't show up as "Web Mountain" and with their product numbers... not that it wouldn't show up at all

 

[Steve]

How has Gen II affected the biggest complaint about UPB, the delay between pushing the switch and getting operation? (I'm only referring to operation of the loaded switch itself. not network delays.)

Well, as I have always said from the beginning, the delay is a very subjective thing. Some people are extremely bothered by it, some, like me, it doesn't really bother at all. But... the original switches I believe were set at 750ms. For comparison, Insteon I believe is fixed at 300 or 350ms. The new switches let you adjust that delay down (I know I tested an early 400ms model from SAI). Yes, the difference is noticeable, but still not an issue for me. So.... I would suspect there are still people that would be unhappy with them even with a 50ms delay - its all perception, but perception is reality to people, so therefore the only thing to do is try it yourself. As mentioned, a single starter kit can be obtained.

 

[rmcneil]

i'm hardly an expert either, but i do have a bit of experience with upb.

the web mountain stuff probably won't show up in upstart since it is just re-branded SAI stuff...

as for the intro kits, i'm an end user, and i was able to buy two from two different retailers (don't tell, okay?). they're out there if you look hard enough.

UPStart/Web Mountain:
Web Mountain does show as a choice, but you are right, most of the entries are the same model numbers as in the SA list.

Intro kits:
I figured I'd likely do my purchases through Automated Outlet based on all the good things people on this and other forums have to say about them and Martin. What searching I have done shows the advanced starter kits consistently priced by everyone at $400 or so. hucker makes a good point that it would be difficult to keep people from buying multiple kits, so I can see why they are not advertised cheaper, but not everyone would abuse that privilege... hint, hint, Martin.

RM

 

[rmcneil]

How has Gen II affected the biggest complaint about UPB, the delay between pushing the switch and getting operation? (I'm only referring to operation of the loaded switch itself. not network delays.)

Well, as I have always said from the beginning, the delay is a very subjective thing. Some people are extremely bothered by it, some, like me, it doesn't really bother at all. But... the original switches I believe were set at 750ms. For comparison, Insteon I believe is fixed at 300 or 350ms. The new switches let you adjust that delay down (I know I tested an early 400ms model from SAI). Yes, the difference is noticeable, but still not an issue for me. So.... I would suspect there are still people that would be unhappy with them even with a 50ms delay - its all perception, but perception is reality to people, so therefore the only thing to do is try it yourself. As mentioned, a single starter kit can be obtained.

Here's where I'm at:

I've had a fairly simple X-10 system for 20+ years. I've nursed it along waiting for some mature product to evolve and lure me into making a change. As per a lot of people, the SO says she could care less about automation, but when it works, she quietly likes it. When it doesn't work she isn't so quiet. She thinks the delay with X-10 is too much, so she is cognizant of the delay, so being able to get rid of the delay is a selling point for upgrading. Keeping the delay approx the same works against the cause. A week or so ago, an X-10 wall switch died, so once again I started exploring to see if it was time to upgrade.

The time is ripe to test, because I am in the middle of a major remodel. I'm not ready to do the electrical install yet, but I can easily install a few switches here and there of different types for test purposes. Then when it is time to add the new electrical we will have had time to evaluate the new stuff and decide what to buy a bunch of.

I'm nervous about Insteon for obvious reasons relating to product reliability and customer service. Those with gripes, there is no need to fill me in, I've read enough on all the forums to know I need to be cautious. I like nearly everything I've read about UPB except for the slow response time, but that is a potential deal killer in this house. The product seems to be reaching a level of maturity where it will just keep getting better, but after spending $400 and a day to setup, if it is too slow to pass WAF, then it doesn't matter what else it can do.

Theoretically, I can order a small starter Insteon setup of my own choosing and return it within 30 days if I don't like it, so I have an avenue to test and return. I'd prefer to have more than 30 days, but it's better than nothing. I'm not coming across any such generous return policies for UPB and the startup price is higher to boot.

The easiest solution for me is to just buy a new X-10 switch and leave everything alone. It works, it has already passed the WAF, it is the cheapest and least time consuming of my options. Next best is Insteon, because worst case scenario, I revert back to X-10 and hope the switches don't die. Where's my incentive to test UPB? I'm willing to write off a failed $150 test, but $400 is just too much.

RM

 

[gregking]

Just to clarify in case you haven't actually used a UPB switch...the response time of UPB is really quick and is nothing like X10. The delay that is typically discussed with UPB is the internal delay within the switch before an action occurs. This is to allow the switch to differentiate between a single click and double click. This response is sometimes annoying to people and is what is configurable in the new version of the switches.

Now, if you press and hold a UPB for a dim/bright, the response once it starts changing is fast enough to be acceptable to most users. Or if you send a command from an HA system, it is very quick.

gk

How has Gen II affected the biggest complaint about UPB, the delay between pushing the switch and getting operation? (I'm only referring to operation of the loaded switch itself. not network delays.)

Well, as I have always said from the beginning, the delay is a very subjective thing. Some people are extremely bothered by it, some, like me, it doesn't really bother at all. But... the original switches I believe were set at 750ms. For comparison, Insteon I believe is fixed at 300 or 350ms. The new switches let you adjust that delay down (I know I tested an early 400ms model from SAI). Yes, the difference is noticeable, but still not an issue for me. So.... I would suspect there are still people that would be unhappy with them even with a 50ms delay - its all perception, but perception is reality to people, so therefore the only thing to do is try it yourself. As mentioned, a single starter kit can be obtained.

Here's where I'm at:

I've had a fairly simple X-10 system for 20+ years. I've nursed it along waiting for some mature product to evolve and lure me into making a change. As per a lot of people, the SO says she could care less about automation, but when it works, she quietly likes it. When it doesn't work she isn't so quiet. She thinks the delay with X-10 is too much, so she is cognizant of the delay, so being able to get rid of the delay is a selling point for upgrading. Keeping the delay approx the same works against the cause. A week or so ago, an X-10 wall switch died, so once again I started exploring to see if it was time to upgrade.

The time is ripe to test, because I am in the middle of a major remodel. I'm not ready to do the electrical install yet, but I can easily install a few switches here and there of different types for test purposes. Then when it is time to add the new electrical we will have had time to evaluate the new stuff and decide what to buy a bunch of.

I'm nervous about Insteon for obvious reasons relating to product reliability and customer service. Those with gripes, there is no need to fill me in, I've read enough on all the forums to know I need to be cautious. I like nearly everything I've read about UPB except for the slow response time, but that is a potential deal killer in this house. The product seems to be reaching a level of maturity where it will just keep getting better, but after spending $400 and a day to setup, if it is too slow to pass WAF, then it doesn't matter what else it can do.

Theoretically, I can order a small starter Insteon setup of my own choosing and return it within 30 days if I don't like it, so I have an avenue to test and return. I'd prefer to have more than 30 days, but it's better than nothing. I'm not coming across any such generous return policies for UPB and the startup price is higher to boot.

The easiest solution for me is to just buy a new X-10 switch and leave everything alone. It works, it has already passed the WAF, it is the cheapest and least time consuming of my options. Next best is Insteon, because worst case scenario, I revert back to X-10 and hope the switches don't die. Where's my incentive to test UPB? I'm willing to write off a failed $150 test, but $400 is just too much.

RM

 

[rmcneil]

Just to clarify in case you haven't actually used a UPB switch...the response time of UPB is really quick and is nothing like X10. The delay that is typically discussed with UPB is the internal delay within the switch before an action occurs. This is to allow the switch to differentiate between a single click and double click. This response is sometimes annoying to people and is what is configurable in the new version of the switches.

As I noted earlier, I'm only talking about the delay of a local switch controlling its own local load. Network delays will vary considerable. As has been demonstrated by this thread, there is no consensus regarding response time. Why is it so hard to find a concrete answer about local response times on any of these switches? It is not clear which models and brands of switches have fast or slow times. It is not clear which switches have configurable response times. This should be a standard spec available for every switch and every revision.

It sure would be nice if someone had the equipment necessary to test and publish a list of local response times. This could include X-10, Insteon, UPB, Z-Wave, etc and should include different brands as well as different models and revisions.

A boy can dream...

 

[hucker]

I am pretty knowledgeable about delays and latency in user interfaces (designed medical electronic UI's). The human brain cannot tell the difference between 0 delay and about 50 milliseconds (20Hz). If you start getting slower than that things get more difficult to control, mice, touch screens suck if there is lots of latency...

The problem with the latencies that the UPB switches have is that they are long enough that you can press the button, hear the click, see that nothing has happened and press the button again before the light changes state. Here is the kicker, if you press a SA switch more than twice... it gives up and instead of turning the light on it sits there. I have seen *many* people in my house click the switch, see nothing happen and the click fast to see if they missed it... they are convinced the switch is broken. They are in awe when I press the button and the light comes on. It is just bad design in my opinion. I really think people who think this delay is OK are in denial about how bad it is (this is based on the large percentage of people I see complain at my house).

I'm actually OK with it because I've figured it out and can make it work. I love everything about UPB but the latency is just bad. Just watch people try to figure them out... that said, I think the newer switches with the shorter delay have a very good chance of being acceptable (I'll order them when my bank account recovers!).

All of this said UPB has been rock solid, works great with my home automation, gives me great flexibility, UPStart rocks, support from SA has been great.

 

[Steve]

I don't think me or my wife is in denial as mentioned, it simply just not bother us if it takes 3/4 second for the light to turn on. I really don't care about guests 'figuring it out' either, so again, it is a totally personally choice. But, I think that is all water under the bridge now anyway as all of the manufacturers now support lower delay times. Lets put this in perspective - has there been a single person complain about the delay on an Insteon switch? I've never heard of one. IIRC, the delay in an Insteon switch is around 300ms. The newer UPB switches can be configured at least down to 300ms. Since that is basically the same as Insteon, then it seems to me most people would not complain about UPB delay any more. And I would give Martin a call if you are seriously interested in swapping out your stuff for UPB. I'm sure he can work something out with you.