UPB troubles

[wdeertz]

Ive been running a UPB network for the past 3+ years with no issues. My power is 3 phase and I have a PCS 3 phase repeater installed. I recently tried to make some changes from Upstart while plugged into phase B and I wasnt able to connect to the 3 phase repeater or any devices on phase C. I plugged my PIM into an outlet connected to phase c and Upstart showed all kinds of noise on the system. My HAI Omni Pro 2 is currently able to control all devices across phases a, b and c.

Im trying to diagnose the problem and believe the phase c has gone bad on the PIM. Given all devices are working properly with the OP2 leads me to believe the 3 phase repeater is working properly. Can any experts out there confirm if my logic appears solid before I order a new PIM. Is it common for only 1phase of a PIM to go bad while the other 2work properly?

 

[ano]

So you use a different PIM for your HAI and PCAccess?  That's good.  I can't say I've ever used 3-phase. but your logic sounds correct. The only way your HAI could control everything is if your repeater was working.  Unlike 120/120, you pretty much have to have a repeater with 3-phase.  PIMs are pretty cheap so I would replace that first.  Get a PCS PIM if you can as those things are built like a rock (but a bit more expensive). If that doesn't work, then its the repeater.  Turn a switch ON or OFF on a phase DIFFERENT from the one where the Omni Pro 2 is connected, and see if the Omni Pro 2 can see it. If it can, the repeater is likely OK.  That wouldn't work if your repeater was bad.
 
Also, if you can, make sure you also have a 3-phase surge protector outside by your breaker box.  You really need that with UPB.

 

[pete_c]

Here my primary aux UPB PIMs are HAI. 
 
I leave them on line connected to serial to network interfaces on the phases of my panel in different locations in the house.  IE: attic, 2nd floor and main floor.
 
I utilize a Windows server that I RPD to that runs Upstart and connects to the different UPB PIMs.
 
My UPB network has been fine with no noise that I can see. 
 
The above said I would utilize a spare HAI UPB PIM around your home on the 3 phases of electric and do signal testing to all of your UPB devices from the HAI UPB PIM to check on your PCS UPB phase repeater.  Thinking that the PCS phase repeater has a longer warranty than the HAI phase repeater. 
 
Here today have one HAI phase repeater online and a PCS phase coupler offline and an SA phase coupler offline (but installed - breakers off).  It is too a bit overkill and involved tinkering many many years ago.
 
Here do dedicate breakers / circuits next to the fuse panel for UPB and X10 and run the serial cables over to the OmniPro 2 panel.
 
I started to do this with X10 many many years ago.  I know it is overkill to use a dedicated circuit for one outlet for one PIM.
 
From reading your post it looks like:
 
1 - could be a bad UPB PIM
2 - could be a problem three phase UPB repeater
3 - could be UPB noise on one of the three phases of your electric.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Thanks for this thread, I have a newly manifested noise problem on my 120/120 system.
 
The Omni controls everything and the commands on both phases are working, but the UpStart computer is having problems communicating with a few circuits on the opposite leg.
I took the past weekend and went circuit by circuit on both legs and couldn't isolate the source.
I moved the PIM to the other leg and could communicate with all of the devices on that leg, but not some on the opposite.
Again went circuit by circuit and could not isolate.
 
Now, reading the above, I'm realizing the comms problem travelled with the PIM so I will swap PIMs to see if that is the problem.
I'd never considered a PIM failure as a possibility.

 

[wdeertz]

So you use a different PIM for your HAI and PCAccess?  That's good.  I can't say I've ever used 3-phase. but your logic sounds correct. The only way your HAI could control everything is if your repeater was working.  Unlike 120/120, you pretty much have to have a repeater with 3-phase.  PIMs are pretty cheap so I would replace that first.  Get a PCS PIM if you can as those things are built like a rock (but a bit more expensive). If that doesn't work, then its the repeater.  Turn a switch ON or OFF on a phase DIFFERENT from the one where the Omni Pro 2 is connected, and see if the Omni Pro 2 can see it. If it can, the repeater is likely OK.  That wouldn't work if your repeater was bad.
 
Also, if you can, make sure you also have a 3-phase surge protector outside by your breaker box.  You really need that with UPB.

 Sorry, should have been clearer in my original post.  Yes the OP2 and its HAI PIM is connected to phase b of the power.   The OP2 is able to control devices across all three phases so I think its safe to assume the PSC 3 phase repeater is working properly.  I'm trying to make changes to my UPB network while connected to a PIM in my office connected to a outlet on phase b.  Upstart finds and confirms all devices on phases A and B but can't communicate with anything on phase C including the PCS 3 phase repeater.  While the laptop PIM is connected to Phase B it shows no network noise.  I then took a long extension cord and plugged the laptop PIM into an outlet on Phase C and it shows all kinds of noise and am unable to connect to anything.
 
This behavior leads me to believe the circuitry in the PIM related to Phase C is some how screwed up.  What I don't understand is why the PIM can't find the 3 phase repeater while connected to Phase B.  Not really sure I understand how the PIM works across the 3 phases.
In any event I've placed my order for a new PCS PIM, for what its worth the PIM causing me problems is a Simply Automated UMC-DB9.
 
Thanks, will report back once I receive the new PIM to verify this solved the problems.

 

[ano]

Thanks for this thread, I have a newly manifested noise problem on my 120/120 system.
 
The Omni controls everything and the commands on both phases are working, but the UpStart computer is having problems communicating with a few circuits on the opposite leg.
I took the past weekend and went circuit by circuit on both legs and couldn't isolate the source.
I moved the PIM to the other leg and could communicate with all of the devices on that leg, but not some on the opposite.
Again went circuit by circuit and could not isolate.
 
Now, reading the above, I'm realizing the comms problem travelled with the PIM so I will swap PIMs to see if that is the problem.
I'd never considered a PIM failure as a possibility.

Remember that scary movie where they are trying to trace the call from the "killer" and the police utter that famous line "the call is coming from inside your house?"  We'll how can you call someone from inside your house?  I don't know.
 
But anyway, after too many years with X-10 and probably an equal number of years with UPB, its all the same.  If you suddenly get all this UPB or X-10 noise, the MOST likely cause is a faulty UPB or X-10 device.  Can be a faulty switch, can be a faulty PIM, can be a faulty repeater.  Of course, isolating it is easier said-than-done.
 
I remember in the X-10 days, this would happen quite often.  I had a line monitor which would read the "traffic" and I would start to see crazy traffic that didn't make sense. It was always a switch that had gone bad.  UPB seems to be of better quality than X-10, but problems are still possible.

 

[ano]

 Sorry, should have been clearer in my original post.  Yes the OP2 and its HAI PIM is connected to phase b of the power.   The OP2 is able to control devices across all three phases so I think its safe to assume the PSC 3 phase repeater is working properly.  I'm trying to make changes to my UPB network while connected to a PIM in my office connected to a outlet on phase b.  Upstart finds and confirms all devices on phases A and B but can't communicate with anything on phase C including the PCS 3 phase repeater.  While the laptop PIM is connected to Phase B it shows no network noise.  I then took a long extension cord and plugged the laptop PIM into an outlet on Phase C and it shows all kinds of noise and am unable to connect to anything.
 
This behavior leads me to believe the circuitry in the PIM related to Phase C is some how screwed up.  What I don't understand is why the PIM can't find the 3 phase repeater while connected to Phase B.  Not really sure I understand how the PIM works across the 3 phases.
In any event I've placed my order for a new PCS PIM, for what its worth the PIM causing me problems is a Simply Automated UMC-DB9.
 
Thanks, will report back once I receive the new PIM to verify this solved the problems.

So a 3-phase repeater is not connected to one phase, it is connected to ALL phases.  Each phase has a UPB receiver and a UPB transmitter.  Normally it listens on all phases, and when it "hears" a signal on any phase it stores it, then at the appropriate time it transmits it on the other two phases.  Its not any different than a Ham radio repeater.  So a three-phase repeater can have six points of failure, three receivers any of which can fail, and three transmitters. (That is why they cost the big bucks.)  A PIM just does two things, transmit and receive, so its easier to detect a problem.  From experience, anything with a transmitter can get buggy, and start transmitting noise.  A repeater has the capability of doing this on any phase, so its harder to isolate, but you likely have the repeater on a triple breaker, so you can power it off, and see if the noise stops.

 

[wdeertz]

So a 3-phase repeater is not connected to one phase, it is connected to ALL phases.  Each phase has a UPB receiver and a UPB transmitter.  Normally it listens on all phases, and when it "hears" a signal on any phase it stores it, then at the appropriate time it transmits it on the other two phases.  Its not any different than a Ham radio repeater.  So a three-phase repeater can have six points of failure, three receivers any of which can fail, and three transmitters. (That is why they cost the big bucks.)  A PIM just does two things, transmit and receive, so its easier to detect a problem.  From experience, anything with a transmitter can get buggy, and start transmitting noise.  A repeater has the capability of doing this on any phase, so its harder to isolate, but you likely have the repeater on a triple breaker, so you can power it off, and see if the noise stops.

Ano, your explanation caused me to try some more troubleshooting.  I turned off the circuit which the 3 phase repeater is connected to and then plugged the PIM into phase C.  I still got all kinds of noise so I can 100% confirm that the 3 phase repeater isn't the source of my problems.  I sort of expected this outcome as the OP2 is able to control all devices across all 3 phases.  If the PIM is simply a receiver and transmitter as you describe then why does it work when connected to phase B but doesn't work when connected to Phase C?  I'm almost 100% certain the PIM is my issue but your explanation has me scratching my head why it works on certain phases but not on the other.

 

[ano]

Ano, your explanation caused me to try some more troubleshooting.  I turned off the circuit which the 3 phase repeater is connected to and then plugged the PIM into phase C.  I still got all kinds of noise so I can 100% confirm that the 3 phase repeater isn't the source of my problems.  I sort of expected this outcome as the OP2 is able to control all devices across all 3 phases.  If the PIM is simply a receiver and transmitter as you describe then why does it work when connected to phase B but doesn't work when connected to Phase C?  I'm almost 100% certain the PIM is my issue but your explanation has me scratching my head why it works on certain phases but not on the other.

There are some well known UPB noise sources.  Some plasma TVs, and some Panasonic microwave ovens.  I had one of those Panasonic microwaves, and nothing anywhere near my kitchen would work when the microwave was on.  I had to isolate it with a UPB filter. 

 

[RAL]

There are some well known UPB noise sources.  Some plasma TVs, and some Panasonic microwave ovens.  I had one of those Panasonic microwaves, and nothing anywhere near my kitchen would work when the microwave was on.  I had to isolate it with a UPB filter. 

 
Some LED and CFL light bulbs also create large amounts of electrical noise.  If some bulbs have been replaced recently, that's another thing to check.

 

[mikefamig]

A coffee brewer caused trouble for me.
 
Mike.

 

[wdeertz]

Well I received my new PCS PIM and experienced the same issue so I can rule out the PIM being the issue.  So now I have an extra PIM laying around.  Anyways, I broke down and pulled the electric panel cover off and could see the PCS 3-phase repeater had the blue lights illuminated for Phases A and C but Phase B was dark, Phases A and C would blink red when there was activity as they should but Phase B stayed continuously dark.  I had previously tried shutting off the circuit to the 3-phase repeater with no success but I figured I'd give it another try while I had the cover off.  Figuring a power cycle might reset something in the repeater.  Well when I turned the power back on all three phases on the repeater glowed blue as they should.  I then went back to upstart to see if everything was working but I experienced the same issue of not being able to communicate with devices on Phase C.  I then deleted the 3-phase repeater in my Upstart network and put the PCS repeater in setup mode to re-add to my network.  Upstart found the new device and added it to the network with no problems.  After this everything seems to be working fine.  The PIM connected to Phase B can find and verify all devices on Phase C.  I'm at a loss to explain the cause of this but figured I'd post in case anyone else experiences a similar problem in the future.  All I can think is an electrical gremlin caused something to go awry in the repeater.
 
Anyone have any explanation for why this problem occurred?

 

[pete_c]

Maybe a loosey goosey terminal post on the circuit breakers connected to the PCS 3 Phase repeater?
 
I have a two phase HAI repeater here and it has been fine for a long time.  It is the same hardware as the PCS repeater.
 
Historically I have had issues with stranded wires to terminals coming loose after a period of time. 
 
I just tightened them up a bit and the gremlin would go away.  Here the problem was inexplicable tripping breakers.

 

[ano]

If you look at how UPB operates, and what a repeater does and where it does it, I'm not surprised they would have a relatively short lifespan. Mine has been working for years, but the temps in my breaker box can range from below freezing to at least 150F.
 
I'd keep an eye on it, and if it acts up again, and your connections are tight, just replace it.  If you watch eBay, you can sometimes get good deals on these.  I keep an extra one just in case. If you don't have a surge protector on the lines going into your breaker, GET ONE.  That should add years to the repeater life.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I agree with the temp in the breaker box.  I ate X-10 repeaters at my old home and got frustrated and wound up running conduit from the breaker box, along the garage wall, and into the laundry room and mounted a junction box with the repeater on top of it above the door.  Never replaced a coupler/repeater since (now that it was exposed to home's interior temps).