Where to Start

NGage

Member
Hello All,

I'm interested in getting a replacement/retrofit security system for a 2800 sq ft Colonial, built in 1960s. There is an existing wired system, brand name is Dictograph, probably dates from when house was built. From what I can tell, the wiring is one or more "loops" that cover multiple contacts, so there is no way (from what I know) to be able to isolate which contact tripped. And the system is prone to tripping. Better than nothing, but it's time to replace it.

To give you an idea how the current system is wired, it looks like a contact (let's say a window) is wired by running 2 strand wire by that window. One strand stays down in the wall, and the other runs up and across the contact for the window, then back down to join it's brother in the wall. Hopefully that's enough info about the current wiring to let someone address whether it's completely useless, or could somehow be retrofitted.

So, I'd like to install a replacement system. If there's some way to make use of the existing wiring, I'd like to, but of course in the 21st century, we have to be able to tell what tripped :( . I have some level of DIY skill, having done several A/V and Home Automation projects (zoned lighting control, whole house zoned audio, video, network, WiFi, etc.) I'd be willing to do some or all of the replacement in wireless, if my existing wire can't be used, but I'm curious about whether interference/jamming could be an issue, or is that just the stuff of urban legend?

I may be moving within the next few years, so whatever I choose, I want to be able to offer it to my future buyers as something that could be externally monitored. The idea is that the chosen system would allow PC monitoring/control and also be externally monitored by some service. My thought is that when it comes time to move, I just unplug it from the PC, and it continues to work as externally monitored, but while I'm here, I can also use/monitor with the PC.

So, where should I start? Know any systems that interface well with Homeseer (PC based Home Automation software)? Thanks for any suggestions.
 
Hey NGage, welcome to CT!

I honestly don't know enough about that type of install, but worst case scenario, you could use wireless door/window sensors. Either way, I strongly recommend the Elk M1, it supports both wired and wireless sensors, and is very DIY/HA friendly. Hopefully someone else knows more about this type of system.
 
Hi electron,

Thanks for the reply. I've been considering the Elk M1 based on what I've been reading here - it seems widely recommended. My only hesitation is that I haven't seen it specifically recommended/mentioned for use with Homeseer. Does anyone know of the two being used together?
 
i think tons of folks use them both.

BraveSirRobbin/DavidL - don't you use the Elk/HS/Cinemar?
 
Certainly. There are Homeseer paid plugins as well as the free Homeseer plugin Electron wrote himself.

Get your feet wet by searching around here and you will find alot of info on the Elk, Homeseer and lots of other stuff. IMHO, I think you should start with the M1, if that is your panel of choice, set it up and use it for what it can do, and then decide what software you want to complement it. Unless you already own HS and want a panel you know can talk to it, you should be doing the hardware first. Who knows, you may find that HS may not be the best fit when all is said and done and you have your strategy more set - especially if you have touch screens planned.
 
IVB said:
i think tons of folks use them both.

BraveSirRobbin/DavidL - don't you use the Elk/HS/Cinemar?
I use HomeSeer 1.7.4 with MainLobby Server 1.3.5 and MainLobby 2.86. Note that those versions are not the latest available. They work great and are rock solid. The only time I take my system down is manually due to updates and such.

HomeSeer gives me versatile connectivity to a host of hardware and MainLobby gives me the ability to create a fantastic user interface for touch screens and such.

The newer versions of the software though, in my opinion, still have some bugs that need worked out. I tried them, but reverted back to the older versions. ;)

I use HomeSeer to interface with a Caddx NX8e security system using "Nitrox's" Caddx HomeSeer plugin and also interfaced an Elk-M1 Gold with HomeSeer using both Electron's and MarkL's HomeSeer plugins.

Electron's script requires manual entries for the HomeSeer devices, but the advantage is you can modify the script as it is "open source".

MarkL's script will query the zones of the Elk and automatically create HomeSeer devices. Both scripts are solid and easy to use.

The interface to MainLobby Server/MainLobby is done via the "MainLobby/HomeSeer plugin" which basically takes the values of selected HomeSeer devices and "passes" them to MLServer. Works very well and is rock solid for the versions of software I'm using. :)

Shown below are some screen shots of my MainLobby interface scenes:


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)
 
IVB: Thanks for the info.

Steve: Thanks for the recommendation. I already use Homeseer, although I primarily use it for automation/voice recognition in my Home Theater, plus multiroom audio and a few lights around the house. Interesting that you mention touchscreens; I just set up one n the kitchen, using Meedio as a front end, to control the Multiroom audio. (But the setup isn't as robust as I'd like, with Girder being the glue between Meedio and Homeseer.) Is there some other inexpensive solution that better suits a touchscreen interface?

BraveSirRobin: Wow thanks for the screenshots. I guess I need to investigate how much control of music you have with MainLobby. I see on your screen shots reference to what's playing, so I imagine you have some control.

---

As long as I know that a solution can work with Homeseer, that's fine for now. I'm debating whether to do the actual install of the security system myself; I'm receiving some push from my wife to "just call ADT" and get one of those quick systems. She is reluctant for it to take as long as some of my projects do, and we want it to be something that could be a selling point down the road. Since most of the recommendations are for the Elk M1, one idea would be for me to find an installer to install the Elk, get it up and running and connected to some service, and then I could take my time adding the automation and PC based stuff, knowing that when I move I could just revert back to the simple security solution.

I have a number in mind of $500 (remember, I'm competing with the ADT $100 plus $32/month) to get this system in place. Am I way off?
 
NGage said:
IVB: Thanks for the info.

Steve: Thanks for the recommendation. I already use Homeseer, although I primarily use it for automation/voice recognition in my Home Theater, plus multiroom audio and a few lights around the house. Interesting that you mention touchscreens; I just set up one n the kitchen, using Meedio as a front end, to control the Multiroom audio. (But the setup isn't as robust as I'd like, with Girder being the glue between Meedio and Homeseer.) Is there some other inexpensive solution that better suits a touchscreen interface?

BraveSirRobin: Wow thanks for the screenshots. I guess I need to investigate how much control of music you have with MainLobby. I see on your screen shots reference to what's playing, so I imagine you have some control.

---

As long as I know that a solution can work with Homeseer, that's fine for now. I'm debating whether to do the actual install of the security system myself; I'm receiving some push from my wife to "just call ADT" and get one of those quick systems. She is reluctant for it to take as long as some of my projects do, and we want it to be something that could be a selling point down the road. Since most of the recommendations are for the Elk M1, one idea would be for me to find an installer to install the Elk, get it up and running and connected to some service, and then I could take my time adding the automation and PC based stuff, knowing that when I move I could just revert back to the simple security solution.

I have a number in mind of $500 (remember, I'm competing with the ADT $100 plus $32/month) to get this system in place. Am I way off?
BraveSirRobin: Wow thanks for the screenshots. I guess I need to investigate how much control of music you have with MainLobby. I see on your screen shots reference to what's playing, so I imagine you have some control.


(Click on Picture for Full Sized Image)

Again, this is with older versions of MainLobby. MainLobby uses hooks into JRivers media center to control/access your music library.

As far as a touch screen interface, MainLobby will handle that well as long as you get a touch screen that can handle the "client". (MainLobby does not have a web interface and you must run its client on the remote system). Nice thing about MainLobby is you can easily adjust the buttons from it's library selection to accommodate touch screen users likes.

As far as your cost, I'll let you know upfront that your way off. You should probably list your wants/needs per their priority and list how much it would cost to achieve them. Then decide on a system.

If you can get an Elk M1 installed AND get the master installers code (so you can modify its settings) that would probably be best for the long term (i.e. future upgrades that are not affordable at the present time).

Of course you could get a cheap Caddx NX8e system if the Elk is not available. They are VERY common installs, might cost you a little bit more, but should be available from the likes of ADT types. Again, make sure you are able to get the master installer codes.

This WILL NOT get you the home automation advantages/features of the Elk M1 Gold, but will give you a basic security system that you should be able to interface with HomeSeer. WARNING though, the Caddx programming methodology is not for the faint of heart. I've seen many a person get frustrated with it.

HomeSeer does have some cheaper alternatives to MainLobby for basic touch screen interfaces that you might want to look at also. They have nowhere near the versatility and great looks of MainLobby, but may get you going on a tight budget.
 
Just looked on HomeSeer's Home Page and they have a MAESTRO touch screen interface for $140 that looks pretty cool. I never used it myself and have NO idea of its performance and functionality.

I do know you need the latest version of HomeSeer to use this interface.

Also, look for the TouchPad interface from HomeSeer. It's very limited, but free. I couldn't find any user screen shots but HERE is the forum for it.

EDIT: Found a Touch Pad Screen Shot from fellow Cocooner Rupp:
 
Remember, ADT makes their money by charging you $32 month to subsidize the install. I recommend to NOT SIGN A LONG TERM CONTRACT with them, I think you will be sorry. The hardest part of the Elk install is the wiring. If you can get someone to run the wires and do the contact you should be in good shape to finish the rest.

The different in ADT vs say NextAlarm is approximtely $23 month or $276 year. You would make up the cost of the M1 in just a few years and have a MUCH superior system.
 
BraveSirRobbin: Thanks for the reality check on the cost. I just looked around a minute on the web, found a site called iautomate that had
"M1G Board in Locking Cabinet with XFormer, Large LCD Keypad, 5Ah Battery, Speaker, RJ31X Set"
for $599. So, I'm clearly looking (with contacts and everything) at more. I'm going to start looking for kits that might have something approaching the number of zones/contacts that I'll need. Also, that maestro system you pointed out does look pretty good. Probably not possible to have the "floor plan of the house", but you can't have everything with a budget, I guess. Also, thanks for the screen shot of the Music interface. I see that music control is well covered.

Steve: I'm working hard (just had another one of those "why don't you just call" conversations) to avoid the ADT route. But I'm standing firm. I just need to quickly come up with an alternative plan.

I'll search around the forums for info about packages containing the M1, as well as the best web sites to shop from. If anyone knows of any great M1 starter packages that approach what you'd need for a 4 bedroom colonial (bedrooms upstairs), I'd love to hear about it.

Finally, it might be interesting to hear what price range I really should be looking at (imagining no limits for a moment.) And since tomorrow is my birthday, who knows what I could swing? ;) Bearing in mind that I am interested in automation, where should I be? Is $1K closer to it, or is it higher still?

Thanks, everybody.
 
There are alot of factors that would go into the total cost - choice of lighting protocol, how much security (motions, glass breaks, etc), smoke detectors, extra (like relays to control stuff like garage and irrigation), structure wiring equipment, Network & phone equipment, and the list can go on.

To do a 'starter' Elk system done the right way, with structured wiring, etc. you are looking at over $1k retail - alot depends on wiring, etc. but you can easily spend 2 or 3K.

As far as a great place to buy - AutomatedOutlet is always my first choice. They will also price match pretty much anybody and they have outstanding support.

What part of the country are you in? There may be some cocooners nearby that may be willing to help you out - cheap.
 
Steve: thanks for the advice. I'm in the Detroit area.

I clearly need to come up with a list of what I want protected. Some of it boils down to finding out what's generally accepted practice, I guess. For example, if you live in a house with second floor bedrooms, is it necessary to have sensors on all the windows upstairs? Or is first-floor protection usually the primary goal?

Since I have *no* wire pulled for this project, I wonder whether an all-wireless system is practical/advisable? I know that wireless contacts are more expensive, but don't know how that compares to the cost of having an installer pull wire for every zone. (I've already resolved that I don't have the time/inclination to pull the wiring myself. I can do hook-up and programming, etc, but if I need wire, I'm gonna get someone to do that part.)
 
Do you have an attic/crawlspace to access the second floor, or a basement to get to the first? If you have the room where wiring is feasible I would go that route, hardwire is also much better imo for security. If there is just no way to do wiring, then Caddx wireless for the Elk is decent. At least it is supervised.

I think jwilson is in that area somewhere and maybe has a resource for wires. Otherwise just ask around and you can usually find someone with some experience willing to help you out as a side job. You can always get the wire on your own easy enough and just pay them for their labor.
 
Back
Top