Loxone, HAI, Omnibus, Centralite, RGBWW LEDs

I'm gearing up for the start of wiring our new house. I'm trying to avoid wireless, so the current plan is to home run the loads and controls. I was initially intrigued by the Loxone residential PLC with maybe an Elk for security, but after some correspondence with the Loxone salesman I'm shying away from it. They haven't responded to my questions, just given me a sales pitch while ignoring the questions.
 
So now, I'm considering integrating an HAI Omni Pro II with either OmniBus or Centralite. Its my understanding that the HAI has a driver for the Centralite.
 
1) Is a dealer required to buy, install and program a Centralite system? I see you can buy a few products from their website, but not the entire system. If you have a Centralite system, where did you buy it from?
 
2) If you have a Centralite system, have you integrated it with an HAI, Elk, or another controller? The Centralite seems to have a very basic control system, which in some ways I like the simplicity of it. However, I assume when integrated with an HAI or another controller the HAI/controller can provide more sophisticated automation.
 
3) I like the simplicity of the Centralite, but there are going to be circumstances where I might want more automation. Does the Centralite have provisions for: A) sensor input, i.e. an occupancy sensor? B) Dry contacts to control non-lighting loads? I'm assuming this is where the HAI comes into play.
 
4) Can Omnibus or Centralite system control RGBWW LEDs? The Loxone has a DMX module for controlling a DMX LED driver, for example.

Is there any reason that you seem to be opposed to wireless?  I think that is a big mistake. There is nothing wrong with including wires where it makes sense but in many places it doesn't and planning for wireless is the best way to go. For example wireless works great for blind control, and for door locks, and for lots of other security sensors where wires just don't make sense. I have wireless driveway car sensors, wireless gate contacts, and even a wireless package sensor.  they all work 100% of the time everytime.
 
Wireless is the future, and its best to plan for it in the early stages, rather than to just write-it-off. Just a thought.

sionxct said:

I'm gearing up for the start of wiring our new house. I'm trying to avoid wireless, so the current plan is to home run the loads and controls. I was initially intrigued by the Loxone residential PLC with maybe an Elk for security, but after some correspondence with the Loxone salesman I'm shying away from it. They haven't responded to my questions, just given me a sales pitch while ignoring the questions.
 
So now, I'm considering integrating an HAI Omni Pro II with either OmniBus or Centralite. Its my understanding that the HAI has a driver for the Centralite.
 
1) Is a dealer required to buy, install and program a Centralite system? I see you can buy a few products from their website, but not the entire system. If you have a Centralite system, where did you buy it from?
 
2) If you have a Centralite system, have you integrated it with an HAI, Elk, or another controller? The Centralite seems to have a very basic control system, which in some ways I like the simplicity of it. However, I assume when integrated with an HAI or another controller the HAI/controller can provide more sophisticated automation.
 
3) I like the simplicity of the Centralite, but there are going to be circumstances where I might want more automation. Does the Centralite have provisions for: A) sensor input, i.e. an occupancy sensor? B) Dry contacts to control non-lighting loads? I'm assuming this is where the HAI comes into play.
 
4) Can Omnibus or Centralite system control RGBWW LEDs? The Loxone has a DMX module for controlling a DMX LED driver, for example.

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1) You have to buy the gear from a dealer, but you can install LV components and program it yourself. You will need an electrician to install the high voltage parts. You may want to check AutomatedOutlet and Worthington to purchase the hardware. Software is free from the company's website
2) HAI controller has full intergration with Centralite, both hard wired and wireless (Jetstream)
3) Centralite Elegance system has many components including sensor inputs and relay outputs, but HAI will provide better automation options
4) Omnibus and Centralite can control LED but not RGB, you would need a separate RGB controller that in turn can be operated from HAI.

I also have a new house in my future and have been thinking similar things.
 
I have about 2 dozen Insteon in my current house and although most are dual-band (RF/power-line) I wouldn't give it a 100% rating. Of course that may simply be because its Insteon and not because it has RF component.
 
Centralite Elegance is interesting to me as I like the simplicity and openness (software and integration). I've also been looking at Lutron Homeworks QS although I suspect the cost approaches Savant or Crestron. I'm also considering UPB. I'm not adverse to paying a dealer to install something but I will not buy anything that requires the dealer to make programming or integration changes.
 
I am interested in color "temperature" control as well. I'm afraid the bleeding-edge nature of it means no matter what guess I make about future integration I'll probably be wrong. Too many approaches right now. I haven't looked at DMX enough to know if that has potential in a mid-range solution.
 
Has anyone found mid-range systems that use low voltage to drive LEDs from a central system? 120V/15A circuits to every light fixture is overkill. As is all the "intelligence" designed into the LEDs to interpret power line dimming. I suppose the cost of being "different" far exceeds the savings in wiring.
 

4) Omnibus and Centralite can control LED but not RGB, you would need a separate RGB controller that in turn can be operated from HAI.

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How is the HAI interfacing with the RGB controller? RF, DMX, etc?
 
@jeditekunum - What I've been able to find-out at this point is:
 
- The color temperature of tunable white LEDs can be adjusted either via RF (i.e. Hue, lifx) or DMX (if you have DMX driver).
- There are a growing number of "dim-to-warm" LEDs that lower the color temperature as the bulb is dimmed, mimicking the color curve of incandescent bulbs. This can be done either using a line-voltage dimmer, RF, or 0-10v controls depending on the LED driver. Dim-to-warm with line-voltage dimming seems like the best value, but the temperature range is limited. It sounds as though the Centralite system will work with a dim-to-warm, line-voltage dimmable LED. There will be a point around 10% -15% dim that bulb will flicker and/or go 100% out.
- One of the reasons I was drawn to the Loxone controller is that they have a DMX module. DMX will let you go full RGBWW if your driver supports it.

sionxct said:

How is the HAI interfacing with the RGB controller? RF, DMX, etc?

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HAI has serial ports that can send and receive simple ASCII strings. There are many RS232/DMX controllers out there, like this one: http://response-box.com/gear/decabox-rs232-to-dmx/. It is not a full featured driver, but it provides good control of the LEDs

Thank you picta.
 
The installation guide for the Centralite states to pull 22awg, 6 conductor wire from each gang box to the star board. I assume the switches are just dry contacts. They have some switches with 6 & 8 buttons. Wouldn't these require more conductors, or does Centralite use some serial communications protocal from switches to the star boards?

Each button needs a signal wire and ground, but ground wire can be shared. I used cat5 wire, it is good for up to 6 buttons. The Finesse keypad needs 10 wires: 8 for each button, one for LED control and one ground, so I ran 2 cat5s.

Using Cat5, are you not concerned about voltage drop? To be conservative, I was planning on using at least 18awg.

sionxct said:

There are a growing number of "dim-to-warm" LEDs that lower the color temperature as the bulb is dimmed, mimicking the color curve of incandescent bulbs.

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I recently purchased some Philips "Warm Glow" that claim to go from 2700K to 2200K. I am not at all impressed. To me they borderline on "daylight" when fully on. And they don't seem to warm until well below 50%. Interesting idea but poor delivery IMO.

I'm really more interested in controlling color temp independent from brightness. I guess that means DMX for now.

sionxct said:

Using Cat5, are you not concerned about voltage drop? To be conservative, I was planning on using at least 18awg.

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Not really any current here and no doubt they planned for drop of whatever length they support.
 
The nice thing about Cat? (6 and 6A are now common) is that future upgrades would be possible even to ethernet/POE.
 
 
Can't say that this research is giving me a good feeling. Centralite and Omnibus look like great products. BUT, are they going to survive? Seems that Centralite is deemphasizing hardwired and coming out with entry-level consumer level junk. The world has gone RF mad, no doubt because of the ease of retrofit, but that isn't perfect either. I tend to want industrial-strength reliability and that has always meant hardwired.
 
I guess I will plan for hardwired centralized system. At least that can still be used for Insteon/UPB/... if necessary.

I'm actually looking at the Omnibus stuff as I type. Appears they don't have a DMX module, just DALI. I'm not that familiar with DALI.
 
I think one goal here is to future proof the wiring, so that whatever systems are available in the future can be "dropped in."
 
I'm not particularly impressed with the dim-to-warm products I've seen either, mostly because the color temperature range is limited. I suspect the line-voltage dimming is questionable on the low end also. I imagine the tech will improve, but we're not there yet.
 
What I like about the Centralite is that its made with off the shelf solid-state relays (crydom). You ought to be able to use a Raspberry PI or even a PLC to control the relays, if for whatever reason the Centralite controller wasn't available or didn't get the job done. However, the system would still have to be paired with a DMX controller for RGBWW. Still researching options there.
 
There are some central lighting systems that have RJ45 jacks in the controls (Wattstopper, Touchplate). Wattstopper is part of Legrand and uses the Vantage controller, so probably requires a dealer install. Touchplate is interesting, but doesn't have the off the shelf relays like Centralite.
 
Speaking of reliability, I'm trying to plan for worse case. If you add-up the current of several mechanical relays to say 0.5 amp. 24awg at 24vdc over 200ft (100ft out and back) has about a 5v drop. The coil's pick-up voltage is about 18vdc. It should work but I guess its a little close for my comfort; I like to leave room for the unexpected. That said, I just remembered that Belden makes a 22awg Cat5e (their DataTuff line). Loxone recommends Cat7, in part because the shielded pairs would allow you to use the pairs for different signals (DMX, 0-10).

I did an review of an earlier Loxone system for CE Pro.
 
I might be able to answer your questions.

sionxct said:

Using Cat5, are you not concerned about voltage drop? To be conservative, I was planning on using at least 18awg.

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I have no issues with cat5, but my longest run is less than 150ft. Some Centralite keypads have cat5 jacks built in, you can use them to plug in the wire or use separate wire terminals

sionxct said:

What I like about the Centralite is that its made with off the shelf solid-state relays (crydom).

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Interesting. I know almost zero about crydom. When I see "relay" I think on/off only. Apparently these can be used to dim as well. I haven't taken the time to dig into it but I imagine that means that they are essentially triacs - the "solid-state" component that does the work. That is, the high voltage switching side of most dimmers (trailing type). Which suggests that the Centralite controller contains the low voltage triac driver which has to pulse the crydom at the right point in the ac cycle - 60 times a second. Not impossible to implement with DIY components but not trivial either (pretty low level). Especially when quantity is needed.
 
Omnibus network (RS485, right?) would be a lot easier to deal with. They also can do either leading or trailing dimming (triacs can't do leading dimming). Wonder what they are using? They say "SCR" on the device but that really means triac (need two back-to-back SCR for A/C and that is what a triac is). For leading it says "Transistor"... wonder if its a IGBT or MOSFET... In the "old days" of incandescent, leading-edge supposedly caused less buzzing. I'd imagine the dimmer smarts in LED don't like leading at all; but low-voltage lighting with transforms would I think.