HA Thermostat options for zoned HVAC unit? (long!)

[Odeen]

Hi guys,

I'm in the midst of planning my HA system.. It seems that while most popular protocols (UPB, Insteon, Z-Wave) offer acceptable to great lighting control, thermostat options are considerably more varied.

MY GOAL: Thermostat system with external temperature sensor and remote temperature display and control.

House background:
New construction (2 years old) townhouse. 3 levels. Each level about 20x40 feet. Wood frame on concrete slab - i.e. good for radio propagation.

HVAC system background:
* Single stage cooling and heating system located in attic above 3rd floor. Difficult to access.
* HVAC controlled by Honeywell HZ311 3-zone panel.
* Each floor has 1 thermostat with 5-wire hookup.
* 24V "Common" available at all thermostats.
Issue: No data wiring is available in the attic. This means a new zoning controller must be able to communicate wirelessly to the HA system, or the thermostats themselves must integrate into the HA system and continue to signal the "dumb" zone panel over existing wiring.

Issue 2: 3rd floor thermostat is inconveniently located in the office/loft area instead of inside the master bedroom.

Currently, I'm using a Honeywell Prestige HD thermostat with a Portable Comfort Control remote in the master bedroom. The Prestige HD, with the always-on 4.3" wide color touchscreen is a neat piece of gear, and it wows my friends. The PCC remote has its own temperature sensor. It monitors the temperature in the master bedroom, and controls the thermostat appropriately. As a result, the master bedroom is ALWAYS comfortable, and I can turn the heat or the AC up and down without getting out of bed.

Sadly, the Prestige system, despite being wireless, has NO automation or PC interface. I can adjust the thermostat, or I can use the Portable Comfort Control, but I don't have the turn-the-lights-and-the-heat-off-with-one-button-I'm-leaving functionality that an HA system offers.

So, the HVAC control requirements are thus:
1) Remote temperature sensing for master bedroom
2) Remote display and control capability from a tabletop keypad (preferably completely wireless and battery operated)
3) No new wires (except for remote temp sensor, which can be done through the attic)

And my options:

1) RCS TU16 for UPB. UGly with a capital UG, messy install (3 TCU boxes + 3 UPB interfaces in the attic). 3 UPB interfaces are expensive. Requires bulky RS15 external temperature sensor.

2) Venstar thermostat for Insteon. Home Depot Special looks, T1800 7-day programmable unit required for RS1 (Internal temp sensor) support. Presumably, I can use then an Insteon Touchlinc touchscreen, or an ISY-99 and some other touchscreen device to control the thermostats and lighting. Fairly palatable option.

3) Kind of a darkhorse - RCS TR60 RS485 thermostats with RCS ZCV4 zoning panel. The RS485 data runs over existing thermostat wires. The only issue is that the zoning panel has some kind of a serial output... which I would connect to what exactly in my attic?

4) RCS TZ43 for ZWave. Nice dot-matrix display (still no match for the Prestige, but I wouldn't kick it out of bed in the morning). This is an attractive option because you can currently get a whole houseful of Z-wave dimmers for next to nothing ( http://www.monstercable.com/holiday/employee/default.asp ) and build a nice full Zwave mesh. The only question is the best remote interface to the thermostat. The Cooper Aspire RF handheld and tabletop controllers look great, but I'm concerned about interoperability with non-Cooper thermostats (and non-Cooper light switches). Other controllers have little display capability and the documentation is mum about thermostat support...

So let's say it's 4 o'clock in the morning, and you wake up because the bedroom feels too cold. What's the easiest controller to punch the heat up a degree or two - one that does not require you to launch a mobile phone app and generally needs the the fewest button pushes to change the temperature?


-Alex

 

[Techvet]

I have had experience with two of these RCS units and can offer some input.

The TU16 has several close cousins in the RCS line-up. The TXB16, the TU16, and the TZ16 are all pretty much the same unit with different communication interfaces X10, UPB and ZWave respectively. The TZ40 is very similar to if not almost identical to the first three, but simply has an updated wall display unit and the TZ43 is the all in one unit. Bot the TZ40 and the TZ43 units are ZWave. I used the TXB16 in my old cabin along with the Honeywell controller installed by the HVAC folks. The pros to this unit are that it is fairly easy to install, it has out of the box communication capabilities and it ties in nicely with your existing zone control board. The cons are that the TXB16, TU16 and TZ16 are ugly (the TZ40 has the nicer looking display unit), it has multiple 'boxes' (which will be up in the attic out of site) and any outside temperature measurements will require multiple outside sensors, one each for each thermostat.

The ZCV4 option is a bit cleaner. You'll ditch your existing zone controller and the ZCV4 will replace that. The thermostats in each room will be replaced by the TS60 wall display units and these will communicate with the zone ZCV4 zone controller using your existing thermostat wiring. You can use a single outside temperature sensor that will be reported to the ZCV4 and will be communicated downstream to the wall display unit - simple two conductor 22-24 gauge wire is all that is needed to make the outside temp sensor work. The ZCV4's automation interface is the RS485 serial port you mentioned. As a stand alone, this does not communicate with any 'easy' out of the box technology - i.e. no X-10, UBP, or ZWave control is possible without additional hardware. While very versatile (and what is currently installed in my home), it probably is not the direction you want to go unless you want to really jump into home automation with both feet.

The TZ43 may be what you are looking for. It is a clean install and should interface well with your existing HVAC zone controller. If also gives you ZWave automation control out of the box. I don't use ZWave in my home, but many folks do and really like it. One notable downside to this is that these individual thermostats do not communicate over a common communication bus. In the case of the TZ43 and other individual thermostats, you can communicate with them over the ZWave interface and they can communicate back, but they don't communicate with each other. That means that if you want an outside temp display, then each thermostat will need it's own outside temp sensor.

One thing concerns me a little and that is that the 3rd floor thermostat is not ideally placed. Pretty much all of the RCS units, including the TZ43 feature the ability to have a remote temperature sensor either average with or be mapped out to replace the internal sensor at the thermostat location. So this means that your upstairs thermostat would run off the temps in the bedroom not the office/loft area. However, in order to make this happen you'll need wiring installed between the upstairs thermostat in the loft/office area and the master bedroom. So unless you can manage to run that one wire between the rooms then the deal with RCS equipment may be off.

 

[IndyMike]

Hello Alex,

Let me start by saying that I have a 10 year old Honeywell zoned system that I installed when we built our home. It's very outdated by today's standards, but I've been very happy with the controls it provides (humidity, outside air temperature, fresh air kit, etc.).

I've been reading up a bit on the system you have - things have come a long way since '2000. If my better half had any idea that she could have a RF remote to adjust the bedroom temperature (I like it cool) I would be beaten about the head an shoulders to "update" our system. In short, if you are happy with the current system (it sounds like you are) I would go out of my way to keep the existing controls in place and add to their capability.

After a little searching, I found that a company named In2 networks makes network interfaces for "some" of the Honeywell zone control systems. This allows both network and internet monitoring/control of the system. Unfortunately, Honeywell has a dizzying number of thermostats and zone panels. Your thermostat/panel may not be supported. In2's product link is located here: In2 Honeywell Network Adaptor.

The In2 product appears to be geared toward the "communicating" series of thermostats. I can't tell, but your Prestige thermostat may be newer (Redlink RF thermostat). If the In2 product doesn't pan out, I would give Honeywell Sensing and Control a call. I find it hard to believe they would have sacrificed remote interface capability on one of their premier systems.

 

[jkish]

There is now a Prestige IAQ thermostat (9421) that communicates with a supplied EIM (Equipment interface module).

The IAQ has more advanced features beyond the Prestige HD thermostat and I believe the EIM allows connection via the Enviracom bus.

Honeywell makes a serial interface module for the Enviracom bus. If you search around a bit, there are some code projects that have connected to that bus including a HomeSeer plugin. The device that IndyMike referenced also connects to the Enviracom bus for its control.

 

[Odeen]

The ZCV4 option is a bit cleaner. You'll ditch your exiting zone controller and the ZCV4 will replace that. The thermostats in each room will be replaced by the TS60 wall display units and these will communicate with the zone ZCV4 zone controller using your existing thermostat. You can use a single outside temperature sensor that will be reported to the ZCV4 and will be communicated downstream to the wall display unit - simple two conductor 22-24 gauge wire is all that is needed to make the outside temp sensor work. The ZCV4's automation interface is the RS485 serial port you mentioned. As a stand alone, this does not communicate with any 'easy' out of the box technology - i.e. no X-10, UBP, or ZWave control is possible without additional hardware. While very versatile (and what is currently installed in my home), it probably is not the direction you want to go unless you want to really jump into home automation with both feet.

Hi Techvet, and thank you for your reply!

The TZ43 option is pretty appealing. The outside temp sensor is a "nice to have", and I don't particularly NEED it. The remote sensor isn't a difficult install (thankfully). It's a few feet of wire that can run up and through the attic area. I do have access to a licensed electrician that has already installed my recessed lighting and surround sound speaker wiring. He works for the electrical subcontractor for the entire townhouse development, so he's quite familiar with all the electrical systems.

That said, the ZCV4 option is interesting, and I could jump in head first with both feet, so to speak. The only trouble is that I have no way to connect the ZCV4 to anything without using powerline transmission or wireless. In your case, what is the ZCV4 connected to, and what do you use to check and control your thermostats? Is there an additional box that allows a regular HA system to interface with the ZCV4, or is it primarily designed for a major security/automation system?

 

[Odeen]

Hello Alex,

Let me start by saying that I have a 10 year old Honeywell zoned system that I installed when we built our home. It's very outdated by today's standards, but I've been very happy with the controls it provides (humidity, outside air temperature, fresh air kit, etc.).

I've been reading up a bit on the system you have - things have come a long way since '2000. If my better half had any idea that she could have a RF remote to adjust the bedroom temperature (I like it cool) I would be beaten about the head an shoulders to "update" our system. In short, if you are happy with the current system (it sounds like you are) I would go out of my way to keep the existing controls in place and add to their capability.

Hi Mike,

For your sake, I hope your better half doesn't read these forums! This entire system might be for sale in the Classifieds section here at some point. While I'm pretty thrilled with the system, there is NO Redlink interface for HA.

The In2 product appears to be geared toward the "communicating" series of thermostats. I can't tell, but your Prestige thermostat may be newer (Redlink RF thermostat). If the In2 product doesn't pan out, I would give Honeywell Sensing and Control a call. I find it hard to believe they would have sacrificed remote interface capability on one of their premier systems.

My system uses Redlink.. Unfortunately, there is NO way to interface to a Redlink system from outside. There is no USB redlink controller, no plug-in radio module, no Wi-Fi adapter, etc. It's great as an advanced thermostat, but it cannot be connected to anything else.

 

[tmbrown97]

Odeen,

That's some good research you've done so far - it actually helps me confirm I'm about to do mine right! Some time this week I'll be ordering the ZCV4 and 3 or the TR60's. Currently I have a 2-zone system, but I'm going to turn it into a 3-zone so I have better control of the kids' rooms.

It seemed like you liked that option, and RCS is one of the main players in this space, so support for them is pretty standard; have you considered using something like this: http://www.globalcache.com/products/itach/wf2slspecs/ to extend the serial to some place that's of use to you? Then you could use any control software or system pretty much, along with whatever controllers they support. Right now, you can pick up Elve for as little as $99 and have support for iPod/iPad, Android, Windows, Mac, etc; and even have a web interface that you can run on anything; and with a package like that, you now can get your "turn-the-lights-and-the-heat-off-with-one-button-I'm-leaving" functionality because Elve can watch any action and trigger events based on it - including something as simple as a light-switch press.


Once you have a controller in the middle, control can come from anywhere... from touchscreen devices, chumby's, etc; you get to decide from there.


That all said, it's really unfortunate that the Honeywell has no HA capabilities; that's the best looking screen I've ever seen and I'd use it in a heartbeat if it could be connected easily to the rest of my systems.

 

[Lagerhead]

So let's say it's 4 o'clock in the morning, and you wake up because the bedroom feels too cold. What's the easiest controller to punch the heat up a degree or two - one that does not require you to launch a mobile phone app and generally needs the the fewest button pushes to change the temperature?

I use bedside remotes, both wired and RF, for climate control. The remotes are the inexpensive X10-type push-button-only units. Thermostats are Proliphix IP-enabled. For this to work you need an HA system of some sort as the intermediary.

The wireless control sequence is push button > W800RF > HA app > Ethernet > Proliphix thermostat(s). I have found the most useful controls are setpoint day, setpoint night, +1 degree, -1 degree, hold, return to normal schedule.

With push buttons and no display, it's important to have announcements for this kind of use, e.g. "Bedroom setpoint heating / cooling xx degrees / hold / running" and "Bedroom temperature xx degrees" and "Outside temperature xx degrees." These are triggered on demand by a button push, formatted within in the HA app, and then spoken by the Elk M1.

It goes without saying that this approach gives control possibilities far beyond temperature control (lighting, fans, tasks, arm system, etc.). As documented elsewhere, my HA app is entirely homebrew, but I imagine any of the good HA apps would be able to do this.

 

[Techvet]

Hi Techvet, and thank you for your reply!

The TZ43 option is pretty appealing. The outside temp sensor is a "nice to have", and I don't particularly NEED it. The remote sensor isn't a difficult install (thankfully). It's a few feet of wire that can run up and through the attic area. I do have access to a licensed electrician that has already installed my recessed lighting and surround sound speaker wiring. He works for the electrical subcontractor for the entire townhouse development, so he's quite familiar with all the electrical systems.

That said, the ZCV4 option is interesting, and I could jump in head first with both feet, so to speak. The only trouble is that I have no way to connect the ZCV4 to anything without using powerline transmission or wireless. In your case, what is the ZCV4 connected to, and what do you use to check and control your thermostats? Is there an additional box that allows a regular HA system to interface with the ZCV4, or is it primarily designed for a major security/automation system?

I have a RCS CS48 HA controller as the base of my system. I have 4 of their LCD keypads throughout the house and can access any light, any thermostat, the security system, the garage doors from any keypad. It is highly capable when it comes programming language (perhaps one of the best out there), but most would point out that it is somewhat dated. It is also out of production and has been for going on a couple of years. Regrettably, RCS has pretty much moved out of the home automation controller business, but they are super focused on their HVAC business.

Because of their HVAC footprint, several HA systems have the capability to interface with RCS HVAC equipment - ELK and HomeSeer come to mind. Both are excellent HA system controllers with robust support communities. Both are also expandable, so you don't have to do everything at once.