Totally Newbie Question on Light Control - my apologies!

[zebmina]

Hello experts...
 
I did a bunch of googling to try and get an answer, but perhaps my googling skills are not quite up to par, as I was unable to find an answer to something I would think is a pretty fundamental questions...
 
I have existing dumb power switches, and would like to add some element of HA.   Since I am the slow and plodding type, I want to add HA slowly (although if someone can suggest something better, I am all ears!):
 
- add modules to existing outlets so I can control lamps (table, floor, etc.)
- next add smart wall switches
- next add a couple of IR devices to control things like TVs
- next add some moisture, smoke and temperature sensors
 
I would of course like to monitor and adjust things from the internet.
 
Here is my problem in understanding:
 
- I feel safe in the knowledge that I can control outlets and therefore the devices connected to that outlet, which is why control of floor and table lamps makes sense
- if I add a few smart wall switches, does it take away my ability to manually turn devices on/off my simply flipping a wall switch on/off?  What if I have a 3-way switch?  Will I need to replace all the switches?
 
Finally, with the plethora of controllers out there, how do I get started?  I have read about Insteon ISY994i, Vera Lite, plus a little bit about HAI, but difficult to figure out what makes sense for me.  I have a Vista 20P wireless-only alarm system that I installed/programmed myself and it seems to function as I expected, and want to get something that offers compatibility with the HA controller.
 
Specifically with respect to the HA part, what modules makes sense to get:
- outlet modules
- wall switches
- IR blasters
- smoke/temperature/moisture sensors
 
I apologize for what may seem to be obvious to most of you, but am floundering, so any guidance is greatly appreciated!
 
Thanks.
 
Zeb
 

 

[wkearney99]

For table lighting I've found it best to use table dimmers.  Lutron makes them for RadioRA2 lighting.  They also make an in-line module.  They do not currently make a RA2 on-wall outlet module (nor in-wall, for that matter).  Taking control of outlets with anything other than a strict on/off switch raises electrical and fire hazard risks. 
 
For anyone's system you pretty much HAVE to use the controller and NOT the on-device switching.  There's a bit of an un-learning curve getting people to NOT use the on-lamp 3-way knob instead of the table dimmer...
 
IR blasting sucks.  It's often smarter to just get new gear that supports modern controls instead of hassling with IR.  Make note, this is a pre-cursor to "I told you so" posts...
 
Step back and ask, what is it you're hoping to accomplish?  That and who else is going to be using that space?  And what are their expectations and levels of tolerance for gizmos?

 

[zebmina]

Thanks, wkearney99!
 
Let's see....  What do I want to accomplish...  Your last para is completely on point.
 
My wife and I travel a lot, and i have the usual timers on some lights, which I suppose serves some function..  I have an alarm system that I can monitor remotely, along with some video cameras that are also remotely controlled.  I thought the next step would be to have some form of automation (primarily when I am not home), which is why I considered getting some simple modules to allow me to control a few lights over the internet (that would give it a bit of a lived-in feel).
 
I wouldn't expect anyone else to be using the space (other than my wife and I).  She and I are both quite comfortable with gizmos, so I don't have any worries on that front.
 
I understand what you are saying about IR blasters, and given what little I know about them, your point is well-taken.  I have some older TVs that probably won't have the modern controls (I still need a remote control device to turn it on/off, and I haven't seen anything in the manuals that could indicate otherwise).  My frugal mind dictates that I should reuse whatever I can!
 
The big problem I see is the wall switches...  It's quite a re-training to get us (I count both my wife and me) to ignore the wall switches - sooner or later we are bound to do that and ignore the dimmers.  Are there any smart wall switches I can use?
 
Regards,
 
Zeb

 

[picta]

With automated switches you can control light both from the switch and from the controller, no re-training needed. That note was about table lamps that people usually control with the local switch on the lamp. The 3-way switches can be easily automated, with the "slave" switch. You can replace only the switches you'd like to automate and do it at your pace.
 
Where it becomes difficult is what brand of automated switches to choose. There is currently no standard in automation, so your initial choice will determine the way you do the rest of it. You may choose the switch technology first, and get a controller that works with this technology. Alternatively, you may decide on a controller you want to use and get the lighting that is supported by that specific controller. Out of the controllers you mentioned, ISY only supports Insteon devices (and possible, some z-wave). Vera is primarily for z-wave devices. HAI supports a variety of technologies, but Insteon is not one of them.
 
You say you want to control lights from the internet. A simple automation can implement a random light switching, that rule is usually called "vacation", so no need to log in to do this manually. However, if you do not want automation, and just want a remote access to your lights, you may consider a consumer package, like Lutron Caseta.
 
To control your old TVs, you may consider iRule that lets you operate IP to IR device from a tablet. You cannot use it to automate the action though, for that you'll need newer brands TV that report status.
 
The sensors will require a special consideration. HAI controller supports temp, humidity and smoke natively, but other controllers will require non-native add-ons.
 
You need to decide how far you'd like to go with automation to narrow down the choices. Most consumer solutions offered today have very limited functionality and usually tied to the vendor's app. The other option is to implement your own solution using semi-DIY products. That will give you all the features that you want, be will be more expensive and time-consuming.

 

[zebmina]

Thanks, picta!
 
Yeah, I figure it's not going to be a slam dunk!  For simplicity immediately, it seems like VeraLite would be fine, since it seems to allow Z-Wave as well as Insteon devices to be controlled.  However, for both Insteon and Vera I have read about security issues, which may not be relevant to me since I am not planning on controlling door locks or alarm systems (at least as of now!).  Unfortunately I am not in a position to run wire, so need to depend on wireless technology.
 
I will also look at the Lutron Caseta.  Thanks!
 
Zeb

 

[wkearney99]

From what I understand, Caseta is limited to 50 devices, total.  That's per-account and it's assumed one account per residence.  It's surprising just how quickly you scale up past 50 devices, especially when you factor in motion sensors and the other half of a 3-way circuit.  
 
So start by doing an inventory of everything that'd be automated.  Make sure whatever you start with has the ability to grow to encompass all of your automation requirements.
 
We went with two Lutron Radio RA2 main repeaters; which support 100 devices each.  We're over 100 now and more will come as we have automated shades installed (one device per window REALLY adds up).

 

[LarrylLix]

I have an ISY994i HA box. I love it after using X10 stuff for years it works s much better.
 
The Insteon modules are dual band and mesh networked with a long range. They use powerline signal and RF signals both with mesh networking. They echo commands to pass them along for long distances and security of communication. The ISY box is also compatible with X10 modules but I am slowly fading them out as they do not function as well. The signals are all handshake to insure success with programmable retries. Signals are fast with very slight delay perception. The system does intelligent logic decisions and the ISY consumes less than 3 watts. There is a Z-wave plug-in daughter board available for three systems simultaneously.
 
I have y own weather station, in the works, and it sends wind speed and temps over Ethernet (wi-fi) into the ISY box and I can read them from anywhere in the world.
 
Yesterday, while in another city the FedEx man rang my doorbell, I got a text message telling me that, I called a neighbour, she went and signed for the package I have been waiting for. I can also ring my own doorbell and the backdoor sound is used to tell my wife when the dryer shuts off. If she doesn't enter the laundry room in 5 minutes she gets a text message telling her the dryer has stopped. If the dryer door is left open for an hour she gets a text message the door is left open. Saves winter back draughts.
 
Each day, if I am not at home for 16 hours or more I get a text message telling me that two basement floor areas are still dry, temps in my MBR and shop building, with humidity, wind speed and gust speeds, the total motion detected on 12 motion sensors and a few more to be added.
 
I have 150 watts of LED lighting in my TV room that I have scenes defined for watching TV, reading, all full, desk work, craft table work, movie mode = real dim and all controlled from a handheld or a single wall switch. One switch leaving the room shuts all 9 lights off no matter what was on.

 

[zebmina]

Thanks wkearney/LarryILix!
 
@LarryLLix: Sounds like a cool setup!  Wish I could receive text messages on my phone!  Unfortunately poor or no cell service where I live (yeah!  in this day and age!).  I have to resort to giving people my landline number only, and forwarding to my cell when I am not home.
 
I am quite handy from a programming point of view, and somewhat handy dealing with physical device <-> computer integration (I don't intend to run hardwire through the house unless I win a lottery!).  So perforce I am constrained to use wireless devices - it seemed to me that the cost of buying wireless devices outweighed the cost of having someone come in and hardwire the house, especially given the number of devices I plan on using initially; spreading the cost our over several years is fine with me (unless I find an installer who is willing to spread the cost of running wiring throughout the house!).
 
It seems to me that the two main choices are 994i or the VeraLite.  VeraLite is less expensive that the 994i, but presumably less flexible?
 
Some of my reading suggests that the VeraLite *requires* registering with a central server - is that true, because that concerns me a lot.  I have my own home network and ought to be able to control devices directly.  It would be fine if VeraLite offered an *option* to go through their servers, but doesn;t seem to be the case (unless I am missing something).
 
Re: the 994i, you indicated that daughter boards existed for Z-Wave.  I assume that would be necessary only if I wanted to control generic Z-Wave devices in addition to *standard* Insteon devices (which use their own proprietary protocol).  Is that an accurate statement?
 
I don't plan on controlling too many devices initially, but do plan on slowly growing over time as I learn more (and hopefully as technology improves and becomes cheaper).  So...
 
- say 4 or 5 lights; I have a bunch of incandescent high hats, several CFL, but no LEDs (at this point).  No problem using LED only but will need to manage the replacements over time.  Two kinds of lights to control - from wall switches (primarily the incandescent high hats - 6 of those controlled via a 3-way switch), and around 3-4 table lamps that I normally switch on/off using the typical switches built into the lamps).
 
- a couple of TCs, both over 7 years old, so probably don;t have any real smarts built in;  from my readings, I imagine needing some IR Blaster technology unless there are better options
 
As a starter I would say that's all.  However, I do want to plan for the future so I need to ensure that the controller is powerful enough.  In the future:
 
- I have 25 or so roller shades attached to the insides of the window frame.  I paid a minor fortune to have these made, and want to be able to reuse everything.  I did some research and there  are companies that sell motor assemblies that fit inside the rollers (Rollertroll, for example).  Although the rechargeable batteries included will require some wiring inside walls so that the batteries can be recharged (which is why I want to wait and think through a bit more).
 
- Add smokes; ideally if I could find some 110V Insteon or ZWave that would be fantastic, so I could piggyback onto the already-wired smokes;  but I would be fine with one or two additional low-voltage smokes that can send notifications.
 
Plan on making a decision this weekend and order by Tuesday....
 
Hope this all makes sense!
 
Regards...

 

[picta]

Before you order I suggest you visit these forums:
 
http://forum.universal-devices.com/forum/52-insteon-isy99iisy994i-series/
http://forum.micasaverde.com/
 
Note that Isy is primarily designed to control Insteon devices, if you want later to integrate with other technologies, it'll require a PC or another controller. That is what makes Isy "less flexible". Vera supports an on-board programming language, and has many plugins written by other users that can run directly on Vera controller. It even has an Isy plugin and can act as the secondary controller for Isy.
 
Both Vera and Isy do not require any 3-d party "cloud" to operate, each can be accessed from the Internet via your router, which make them equally vulnerable for security breach, unless you run a firewall. Also, if you do not have a static IP address, you'll need to keep track of the dynamic controller's URL.
 
There are a lot of variables to consider when choosing lighting, and IMO it's best to first try a few devices of each technology in YOUR house before choosing a controller. Any wireless technology will behave differently in different settings. The way the house is constructed will affect the performance depending on the building materials used, so if some technology works in one place, does not mean it will necessarily work in the other. You may get lucky at the first try, or you may have to replace everything down the road. Also, if you choose an inexpensive brand, expect it to fail within a few years. Insteon's PLM is notorious for failing right outside the warranty period.
 
Re: roller shades. If you get a lot of sun, you may consider Somfy motors with solar chargers that are affixed to the window glass, that will make the most clean looking retrofit.

 

[wkearney99]

Retrofitting shades is an adventure.  Especially due to hard-wiring them.  Getting around all the window trim AND the framing hidden behind it can be a real hassle.  
 
I've got a couple of windows framed in such that it'd be nearly impossible to wire them at any time past the original installation of the window casings.  Even then it would've been a hassle trying to leave enough wire behind them somewhere for later use with shades.  And the places where it'd be easy aren't where I'd likely want the automated shades!  The upside to waiting a bit on this has been to narrow down where it would be truly useful to have them automated.  This ends up being about 1/3 of them.
 
Running wire for networking and such is not all that complicated, nor expensive.  Time consuming, sure, but it ain't rocket science.
 
We have a Smart TV (a Panasonic plasma) and we never, ever use the apps on it.  Quite often the apps and the remote control combination is just too annoying.  At this point it's fair to say that using a separate player or other device that has app support is a more workable solution.  Be that a Roku, AppleTV or Tivo (which is what we prefer).  That and a couple of Chromecasts controlled from tablets.

 

[zebmina]

Hi picta, wkearney99:
 
Thanks for your insights!  Most helpful!
 
If In read you right, picta, it would best for me to order a ZWave and Insteon device to try out before I decide on buying the VeraLite or i994.
 
@wkearney99, points well taken on automated shades...  it will be a pain to retrofit, and probably well worth having someone wire it up (especially if I constrain myself to a just shades.  TV control is not mandatory, since I plan on using that more for times when I am not home than to actually control the TV.
 
Regards...

 

[LarrylLix]

Yes the PLM needed for the ISY HA has such a bad reputation for some versions failing about the 2 year mark that forum members have discovered how to fix the failing PLM units made by Insteon, and UDI (ISY mfg) has now designed their own PLM module, prototype made, to be released very soon. Hopefully their PLM design will be in the same quality class as their ISY. Hopefully it will be ready if and when my PLM fails.
 
The ISY box is known to be very reliable, well made, and very well supported by UDI like no other. It interfaces with many other devices via Ethernet connections, wired and wireless. The dual band technology is what puts it ahead for communication reliability. Z-wave users report very short transmission reach and lots of repeaters needed, although they seem to have more locks available for that system. Thus the Zwave plug-in board made by UDI to support expansion of their HA unit.