Motion Recording gated by Alarm Input

[HeiTech]

I'll lead with the meat: Anybody have any ideas how I can set up to use motion-triggered recording that only occurs when a cam alarm input is set?
 
Background: I've just finished converting from cctv to IP security cams and have tied it in to my HAI security/automation system using relays with dry contact outputs. I have 2 exterior cams and 2 interior cams. Since we recently retired, we are home a lot and I have no need (or desire) to record while we are home. My intent was to use the HAI to gate recording using one of the outputs in ARMED mode - that is, when the system is not armed, no recording occur. When the system is armed, motion triggered recording would occur. Seems like this would be a common or at least very desirable behavior. I guess you could say I want this logic:
Record IF (ALARM AND MOTION). 
 
I was dismayed to learn when I was doing final configuration of the cams, that the cameras actually perform this logic:
Record IF (ALARM OR MOTION).
 
Neither cam has an alarm out function (the interior cams are both Samsung SND-6011R), or maybe I could gin up some glue logic. 
 
Any bright ideas?
 
 

 

[tmbrown97]

I suppose they don't have different recording profiles you could switch to based on whether the input is on or off? 
 
Sounds like this recording is taking place inside the camera?  I believe some NVRs could potentially handle this.

 

[az1324]

Unfortunately you would have to either have Samsung enable this option in the firmware or somehow send the appropriate network command to the camera to enable/disable the motion detection when the alarm is armed/disarmed.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I might be missing something here, but why not just switch power on/off to the interior cameras based on alarm status?  Just leave the outdoor cameras on all the time.
 
I do this for my house.

 

[HeiTech]

I suppose they don't have different recording profiles you could switch to based on whether the input is on or off? 
 
Sounds like this recording is taking place inside the camera?  I believe some NVRs could potentially handle this.

Well, there is an SD card in the cam, and I believe it is getting regularly dumped to my NAS, which is my DVR/NVR (Synoloy DS412+ running Surveillance Station). But the NVR software only apes the camera firmware - I have it set for "Motion and Alarm" for all times, but I get motion recording when not armed and continuous recording while armed.

 

[HeiTech]

Unfortunately you would have to either have Samsung enable this option in the firmware or somehow send the appropriate network command to the camera to enable/disable the motion detection when the alarm is armed/disarmed.

Getting Samsung to tweak the firmware ain't gonna happen, as much as I think this is a good marketing feature. Good idea to send command to turn on/off motion recording when armed, but it have no idea how to approach doing this.

 

[HeiTech]

I might be missing something here, but why not just switch power on/off to the interior cameras based on alarm status?  Just leave the outdoor cameras on all the time.
 
I do this for my house.

My first reaction was "Yeah, I already thought of this, but it won't work cause I'm running off POE". However, you got me thinking. The HAI outputs are voltage outputs, either 12VDC or off. They currently drive the relay that gives me a dry contact alarm signal, but maybe I could use either the alarm output directly to drive the camera power (doubt it - I think it's limited to about 40mA or something too low), or keep the relay but connect it to my old 12V CCTV power supply. Hmmmmm. I'm lucky to have a 2 strand wire to the cam, since it used to supply power to the CCTV cams and was converted to alarm duty with the IP cams, so I could once again use it for power. This also means network changes, since I wouldn't be able to keep these cams in the "IPcms" VLAN on my POE managed switch, but it may be worth it. Thanks, I'll look into this approach.

 

[HeiTech]

My first reaction was "Yeah, I already thought of this, but it won't work cause I'm running off POE". However, you got me thinking. The HAI outputs are voltage outputs, either 12VDC or off. They currently drive the relay that gives me a dry contact alarm signal, but maybe I could use either the alarm output directly to drive the camera power (doubt it - I think it's limited to about 40mA or something too low), or keep the relay but connect it to my old 12V CCTV power supply. Hmmmmm. I'm lucky to have a 2 strand wire to the cam, since it used to supply power to the CCTV cams and was converted to alarm duty with the IP cams, so I could once again use it for power. This also means network changes, since I wouldn't be able to keep these cams in the "IPcms" VLAN on my POE managed switch, but it may be worth it. Thanks, I'll look into this approach.

Well, of course of the 4 IP cams I bought, 2 have external/aux power inputs and 2 are POE only. Which 2 are POE only? You guessed it: the 2 interior cams.

Guess I'm still looking for ideas...

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Well, of course of the 4 IP cams I bought, 2 have external/aux power inputs and 2 are POE only. Which 2 are POE only? You guessed it: the 2 interior cams.

Just get an injector for those two cameras (just make sure they use the same pin assignment standard needed for your particular model of cameras).

 

[tmbrown97]

Also depending on the POE switch, if it has any management capabilities you may be able to do this via CLI by sending port shutdown/enable commands - that'll turn the power on/off too - but it's not for everyone since it requires working with the CLI and getting an input from something.

 

[HeiTech]

Just get an injector for those two cameras (just make sure they use the same pin assignment standard needed for your particular model of cameras).

By Jove, I think you've got it! As long as the injectors isolate the POE on the incoming port, and I'm guessing they do, this should work. I'll look into it and post back. Thanks!

 

[HeiTech]

Also depending on the POE switch, if it has any management capabilities you may be able to do this via CLI by sending port shutdown/enable commands - that'll turn the power on/off too - but it's not for everyone since it requires working with the CLI and getting an input from something.

This would be a clean solution. I don't know how to get to the CLI, but I didn't know what a VLAN was a month ago, so I'll check into it and see if it is tackle-able. Also not too sure about the input: the box has one power input and 8 RJ45 jacks and nada mas. Still...

 

[HeiTech]

OK, I've poked around this a bit. I see where I may be able to enable/disable a port and or a port's POE via SNMP using the ZyXel's MIB. I imagine (at my extreme level of ignorance in this area) that I would kick off a SET command triggered from the HAI via its Ethernet port to the switch over SNMP. This would be very cool, and cleaner than hanging a couple of injectors on my POE switch, but my concerns are:
1. I see an entry in the ZyXel KB where the answer is "No, GS1900 series does not support MIB for PoE information."
2. Since I am completely ignorant of SNMP and barely know my way around networks, this looks like a rabbit hole.

 

[HeiTech]

Well, I thought I'd update where I am with this project, to maybe help somebody trying to do the same thing. Here are the avenues I've pursued so far.
 
POE Switching
===========
I looked into POE standards and find there are 2 "Modes":
Mode A: DC+ on pins 1&2, DC- on pins 3&6.
Mode B: DC+ on pins 4&5, DC- on pins 7&8.
For equipment rated 1Gb, power will be riding on data pairs (all 4 pairs are used in 1Gb connection).
For equipment rated 10/100Mb, Mode A will have power riding on both data pairs, and the other 2 pairs unused.

For equipment rated 10/100Mb, Mode B will have power riding on the UNUSED pairs, and the data pairs will only carry data.
 
My POE switch is rated 1Gb, but the cams are rated 100Mb. Nowhere in the documentation for either is the POE configuration mentioned. I was hoping that Mode B would be used: this would be PERFECT for my application, since I could just run one of the power supply pairs through the relay output of the HAI and I'd be done! However, when I removed the power pairs, the cam kept ticking, so no luck there. More reading revealed that:
1. The Mode is determined by the PSE (the Power Supply Equipment, ie the POE switch) and not the PD (Powered Device, ie the cam). 
2. The PD (cam) is required to accept BOTH modes.
3. Generally, "endspans" (POE switches) supply mode A, and "midspans" (usually injectors) supply mode B.
 
So if you are powering via POE switch, you are out of luck unless you want to try to switch one of the data pairs. I did try this as an experiment, but it didn't work with only one pin (probably because of the "phantom power" scheme that puts the supply on the data pair using a transformer.
 

PORT CONTROL
==============
My switch does allow control of POE on any individual port. I've confirmed that disabling POE on a port has the desired affect: the cam is powered off. However, this is only using the web interface. To automate this, I think you'd have to use SNMP (Simple Network Management Protocol) which most switches support, including mine. But sending the control signal is the problem, as Work2Play implied, since it appears there is no way to send a SNMP command from the HAI controller. 
 
USE THE RIGHT CAMERA
=====================
Yup, this is probably the best solution. I have stumbled upon the fact that HikVision (maybe others) HAS THE DESIRED FUNCTIONALITY OUT OF THE BOX. Crap. They appear to offer quite a few options to trigger recording, although combinations/permutations are limited. Here is a link to their generic IP cam owners manual. http://www.hikvision.com/UploadFile/image/2014071815373016515.pdf. See page 66,67,82, 83. I really love the quality of the Samsung cams I bought, and I like having the same interface for all 4 cameras. But... sure wish I had known about this before.
 
SWITCHING AN INJECTOR
=====================
BraveSirRobbin's suggestion is still the most practical for my situation and I bought 2 injectors today. Why not just do this before going through all the pain above? Good question. Fun & education, I guess, the tinker's disease. Also - I have an 8 port intelligent POE switch that I spent a week learning to use and set up a separate VLAN for the IP cams will now be just supplying 2 POE cams and sending non-POE to 2 POE injectors ... seems criminal. Also, I'll be adding 2 more bricks to already crowded power strips, 30 more Watts to an already too hot closet, and switching 48V on relays with an unknown voltage rating (they are rated 5A at 30VDC, but that is more about power than iso voltage). I guess I should get to work now...