Elk M1 ELKM1TWI two way audio

I'm new to the group but have been lurking here for a while while designing a security system for my home and detached garage. I've been reading and learnig for over a month and still I need help on some details.
 
My system so far contalns:
 

House ---------------------------------------------------

ELKM1GSYS4         ELK M1 Gold Controller Kit
ELKM1XRFTWKIT         ELK 2-Way Wireless Starter Kit
ELKM1TWI         ELK M1 2-Way Listen-In Interface
ELKM1TWS         ELK M1 Speaker/Microphone for 2-Way Interface
GE1075N         Interlogix Magnetic Contact (6 mag sensors)
ELKSS15         ELK Self-Contained Exterior Siren

Garage --------------------------------------------------

ELKSWG              ELK Circuit Board Glides
ELKSWB14         ELK Structured Wiring BoxLKM1XEP         
ELKM1EXP         Ethernet Port Expander
ELKM1DBH         ELK Data Bus Wiring Hub
LKM1XIN             ELK M1 16 Zone Input Expander
ELKM1XOVR         ELK M1 16 Output Expander
ELKM1KP         ELK M1KP M1 LCD Keypad (second kp)
ELKM1TWSF         ELK Flush Mount Speaker/Microphone
 
I think that I have a good plan but would love any input and advise that I can get. Using the equipment above I plan to have the M1 controller and the M1TWS  two way audio interface in the basement of the house. Then the house will receive a mix of wired and wireless magnetic sensors on ground floor windows and doors along with the wireless motion sensor. There will be a keypad near the front door.
 
The garage will have the wiring box containing 1 input expander and 1 output expander and 1 wiring hub connected by a cat6 wire pulled through an underground conduit from the house. It will also have 1 keypad and a two way microphone/speader box.
 
All and any suggestions would be appreciated before I pull the trigger and spend $2000 and I do have a question for the group to get things rolling.
 
Q:
 
 When reading the installation instructions for the ELKM1TWS two way interface I see that it needs to be wired to J16 of the M1 board and is triggered by an output on the M1 controller, If I do this it would mean pulling a speaker wire and a microphone wire between the buildings. This is certainly doable but it is about a 250; run and wire is expensive so I am wondering if there is a way to hook the ELKM1TWS to the input and output expanders in the garage. It would be much cheaper for me to buy a second two way device than it would cost to buy all of that wire.
 
Any help?
 
TIA, Mike.     







 

TWA board must be connected to the main panel J header.
 
Pay very close attention to the wiring requirements for the TWA.
 
Also, plan for the voltage drop and total observed load by the panel.
 
Outside horn should be a speaker instead of a siren.

DELInstallations said:

TWA board must be connected to the main panel J header.
 
Pay very close attention to the wiring requirements for the TWA.
 
Also, plan for the voltage drop and total observed load by the panel.
 
Outside horn should be a speaker instead of a siren.

Click to expand...

The speaker/microphone devices are to be attached to the two-way and I was plannig to attach the self contained siren to OUT2. Is that not correct?

DELInstallations said:

TWA board must be connected to the main panel J header.
 
Pay very close attention to the wiring requirements for the TWA.
 
Also, plan for the voltage drop and total observed load by the panel.
 
Outside horn should be a speaker instead of a siren.

Click to expand...

I may just install a 12 volt power supply in the garage for good measure but I am concerned about the length of the speaker and microphone lines. The TWI instructions say not to load the audio output below 4 ohms so I plan to install a single 4 ohm speaker so I think that will be OK.

mikefamig said:

The speaker/microphone devices are to be attached to the two-way and I was plannig to attach the self contained siren to OUT2. Is that not correct?

Click to expand...

 
OUT2 can be connected to either a speaker or a self-contained siren.   Use Global Option 26 to select the type you have connected.
The reason for using a speaker connected to OUT2 rather than a siren is that the sound from the external speaker will be synchronized with the sound from your internal speakers that are connected to OUT1.   If you use an external self-contained siren, you will end up with 2 different siren sounds going simultaneously, which sounds pretty awful.  Take a look at the 1RT or the SPxx speakers for this.
 
The speakers from the ELKM1TWSF get connected to OUT1, while the microphones get connected to the TWI board itself.  You will need to run wires for both the speaker and the microphone out to the garage, in addition to the wires for the databus to connect to the expansion modules.
 
If you have multiple speakers connected to OUT1, you need to wire them in some combination of series and parallel so that the impedance totals 4 to 8 ohms.  A TWS and TWSF in parallel will total 6.4 ohms, so you'll be in the right range.
 
One other comment - if you are going to run the wires to the garage in buried conduit, I would recommend using wire that is rated for direct burial.  Assume that water WILL get into the conduit over time.

RAL covered anything I had to say - especially about Speakers vs. Siren - with Speaker you just ensure the impedance is fine; with a siren, there's the sync plus you have to be aware of current draw - plus sirens often need a resistor across the terminals to keep the supervisory voltage from creating a constant tone from your siren.  If you already had the siren, I'd say either return it or just cut around the siren driver to turn it back into a speaker - it's easy enough to do.
 
Re: Enclosures - usually the kits come with a 14" - I use that as my sub panel in the garage then buy a 28" for the house.
 
For the garage speakers/mic, you might like the TWA interface that has a built in amp - then you can adjust the volume up/down independantly to compensate for voltage drop - also use a gauge higher wire than you'd think to handle the drop in voltage.
 
Also for the garage, I'd go with a P212S and another battery - that keeps the databus intact but sources the power separate from the garage and anything downstream - which will help a lot with any voltage drop.  The negatives will be tied together all the way through.
 
Your ethernet expander will be with the main board, not the expansion unit - it's directly connected to the panel's onboard serial port.

RAL said:

OUT2 can be connected to either a speaker or a self-contained siren.   Use Global Option 26 to select the type you have connected.
The reason for using a speaker connected to OUT2 rather than a siren is that the sound from the external speaker will be synchronized with the sound from your internal speakers that are connected to OUT1.   If you use an external self-contained siren, you will end up with 2 different siren sounds going simultaneously, which sounds pretty awful.  Take a look at the 1RT or the SPxx speakers for this.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info on the two different audio outputs. I will go with all speakers and throw out the siren on OUT2.

RAL said:

The speakers from the ELKM1TWSF get connected to OUT1, while the microphones get connected to the TWI board itself.  You will need to run wires for both the speaker and the microphone out to the garage, in addition to the wires for the databus to connect to the expansion modules.
 
If you have multiple speakers connected to OUT1, you need to wire them in some combination of series and parallel so that the impedance totals 4 to 8 ohms.  A TWS and TWSF in parallel will total 6.4 ohms, so you'll be in the right range.

Click to expand...

I have done some transistor radio repair in y time and understand the importance of the speakers having the correct impedance and will work that out.

RAL said:

One other comment - if you are going to run the wires to the garage in buried conduit, I would recommend using wire that is rated for direct burial.  Assume that water WILL get into the conduit over time.

Click to expand...

I am also aware of the conduit being considered a wet area. I have already run one gel filled cat6 cable for ethernet and will use all direct burial wires.

Work2Play said:

RAL covered anything I had to say - especially about Speakers vs. Siren - with Speaker you just ensure the impedance is fine; with a siren, there's the sync plus you have to be aware of current draw - plus sirens often need a resistor across the terminals to keep the supervisory voltage from creating a constant tone from your siren.  If you already had the siren, I'd say either return it or just cut around the siren driver to turn it back into a speaker - it's easy enough to do.

Click to expand...

No I have not bought anything yet but have the entire system sitting in my shopping cart at Homecontrosl.com. I'll just replace the siren with an outdoor speaker. This is exactly the kind of advice that I'm looking for.

Work2Play said:

Re: Enclosures - usually the kits come with a 14" - I use that as my sub panel in the garage then buy a 28" for the house.

Click to expand...

Again that sounds like good advice! That would never have occurred to me.

Work2Play said:

For the garage speakers/mic, you might like the TWA interface that has a built in amp - then you can adjust the volume up/down independantly to compensate for voltage drop - also use a gauge higher wire than you'd think to handle the drop in voltage.

Click to expand...

I don't recall seeing anything like that, I'll have to see if I can find it.

Work2Play said:

Also for the garage, I'd go with a P212S and another battery - that keeps the databus intact but sources the power separate from the garage and anything downstream - which will help a lot with any voltage drop.  The negatives will be tied together all the way through.
 
Your ethernet expander will be with the main board, not the expansion unit - it's directly connected to the panel's onboard serial port
 
You lost me here. I understand that you would use a p212s to supply power to the devices inthe garage but what are you saying about the data bus and tying the grounds together? Which grounds? And I don't understand what you mean about the ethernet being the main board. The ethernet board allows ethernet access for sending emails and for programming the system via PC software. What do you mean by main board?

Click to expand...

Work2Play
 
I thought about youtr statement aout the grounds and I think that you are saying to tie all of the grounds together for the devices in the garage. I would isolate the M1 controller power supply from the garage power supply and then hook up all house devices in paralell on the controller power supply and all of the garage devices in paralell on the garage power suplly.
 
The rs-485 would still come from the controller to the garage vis cat6 and the speaker and microphone wires would still come from the TWA at the house to the garage via direct burial wire 18-4 or so.
 
AS for the ethernet being the main board I am still confused what you mean by that. I will be going out shortly but check on this forum oin the morning.
 
Thanks all for the input, you've already helped a lot.
 
Mike.

1.  A P212S remote power supply connects to the M1 Databus for supervision - if you look closely at the wiring diagrams, you'll see that all databus devices downstream from the P212S are actually powered by it rather than the power supply off the M1G.  The databus is a continuous connection with each device in sequence ultimately ending in a terminator, so in the garage, the databus would go to the P212S then daisy chain to your input expander and output expander.  Again, if you look at the wiring diagram, you'll see that the positive from the upstream databus connection gets "parked" with nothing connected - the P212S and everything past are powered by the P212S.  Make sure your garage battery is sized to last a little longer than the M1G main box, as all kinds of screwy things happen when your expanders lose power before the main board.  Following the wiring diagram correctly, all your Negative terminals will be tied together so you have a common ground reference throughout the installation, despite having a different Positive power source.
 
2.  You had listed the M1XEP Ethernet Expander within your items for the garage - despite having the M1G main board listed among the House components.  My point was that the M1XEP Ethernet Expander will be located wherever the M1G Main Board is - as it's directly attached to the M1G's onboard serial port, and NOT connected via the databus, which could otherwise be run out in the garage just like the keypad and input/output expanders.

Work2Play
 
I understand now. Listing the ethernet device in the garage was my mistake as I did know that it's connected to the serial port.
 
Mike.

RAL said:

One other comment - if you are going to run the wires to the garage in buried conduit, I would recommend using wire that is rated for direct burial.  Assume that water WILL get into the conduit over time.

Click to expand...

Code considers conduit underground as a wet area and requires a cable rated for such, either direct bury or W suffixed cable.
 
The gel filled cable must be terminated ASAP once it enters the building and it's strongly recommended to transition to normal cabling otherwise the gel tends to "creep" in enclosures.

As for the conduit being considered a wet area, I have proven myself that it is very wet. When we built the garage and I pulled the first wires through the conduit I first used a shop vac to blow air through and a lot of water came spewing out of the other end of the conduit. Then I attached a thin nylon cord to a shop rag, stuffed the rag in the conduit on one end and sucked the cord through the conduit to the opposite end using the shop vac.  Neat trick!
 
As for the gel filled cable I do have a J box at each end of the gel cable where it enters the building and a female rj-45 connector in the face plate, Then I used a patch cord to an ethernet switch which feeds cameras, TV set top box and cameras. Aside from that gel in the cable seeping around it is also just plain nasty to handle. It is only inthe conduit.
 
Mike.

Work2Play said:

1.  A P212S remote power supply connects to the M1 Databus for supervision - if you look closely at the wiring diagrams, you'll see that all databus devices downstream from the P212S are actually powered by it rather than the power supply off the M1G.  The databus is a continuous connection with each device in sequence ultimately ending in a terminator, so in the garage, the databus would go to the P212S then daisy chain to your input expander and output expander.  Again, if you look at the wiring diagram, you'll see that the positive from the upstream databus connection gets "parked" with nothing connected - the P212S and everything past are powered by the P212S.  Make sure your garage battery is sized to last a little longer than the M1G main box, as all kinds of screwy things happen when your expanders lose power before the main board.  Following the wiring diagram correctly, all your Negative terminals will be tied together so you have a common ground reference throughout the installation, despite having a different Positive power source.

Click to expand...

I haven't looked at the intallation instructions for the P212S yet but understand what you are saying and will follow the instructions carefully.

Work2Play said:

2.  You had listed the M1XEP Ethernet Expander within your items for the garage - despite having the M1G main board listed among the House components.  My point was that the M1XEP Ethernet Expander will be located wherever the M1G Main Board is - as it's directly attached to the M1G's onboard serial port, and NOT connected via the databus, which could otherwise be run out in the garage just like the keypad and input/output expanders.

Click to expand...