Hard wired smokes

I have first alert model 9120b hard wired by the builder. How do I connect that to the omni iie to monitor fire? Thanks!

Short answer, you don't

Thanks for the info. What would you suggest? Is there a way to tie in another smoke or sensor to the loop and add it to the omni for fore monitoring? Or am I just SOL and have to run fire wire separate and new smokes?

dhull3 said:

Or am I just SOL and have to run fire wire separate and new smokes?

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That's the right way to do it.
 
There are several other threads on Cocoontech that go into the reasons why you shouldn't tie 120VAC smoke alarms to an alarm panel.

dhull3 said:

Thanks for the info. What would you suggest? Is there a way to tie in another smoke or sensor to the loop and add it to the omni for fore monitoring? Or am I just SOL and have to run fire wire separate and new smokes?

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Its easy, just buy smoke alarms designed to be monitored by a panel like you have and install them. You can buy 2-wire and 4-wire smokes and either should work but they are wired slightly differently. Wireless smokes are available as well.  The smokes you have are required by building codes and perform other duties, like getting you out of the house in a fire. They have nothing to do with your panel.

Here too just left the contractor installed smokes and added my own OmniPro 2 panel connected smokes. 
 
Well actually no.  I have replaced all of the contractor installed smokes because they do not last forever; that is the way it is.
 
It was a PITA and a learning experience for me to do 4-wire smokes and connect them to my OPII panel.
 
Here is a lively discussion between using 2 or 4 wire smokes.
 
===> Lively discussion

Thanks for all the feed back. I didn't realize the smokes I had could get me out of the house better than other ones such as ones connected to my alarm panel which would actually notify the fire department as well. Or better yet let someone know my house was on fire if no one was home. Sounds like smokes designed for alarm panels actually perform other duties better than was is "code".

Does anyone know if wireless smokes work with the omni iie I can't find that anywhere in the manuals

dhull3 said:

Thanks for all the feed back. I didn't realize the smokes I had could get me out of the house better than other ones such as ones connected to my alarm panel which would actually notify the fire department as well. Or better yet let someone know my house was on fire if no one was home. Sounds like smokes designed for alarm panels actually perform other duties better than was is "code".

Does anyone know if wireless smokes work with the omni iie I can't find that anywhere in the manuals

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It's not a one is better for life safety purposes than the other, which really isn't completely the truth. You would need to temper the statement with if a smoke alarm has the same technology and quality as a smoke detector, which usually isn't the case, although they are inherently "good enough" for their intended purpose (in the UL listings and certs of the devices)
 
That said, there's nothing in NFPA that technically states one is more acceptable better than the other. The only place that happens is within building codes and what the AHJ's are willing to accept.
 
Depending on you locale and how the house was wired, you could technically pull your builder devices and install alarm components in their place and use the existing romex, with possibly a minor re-feed from the alarm panel to the first device, but there's considerations of how to do it and I'd also confer with the local AHJ with the plan.

Well from the prospective of a firefighter a "smoke alarm" is better than a "smoke detector" for both life safety and property conservation. One gets help on the immediately and the other does not. But I'm not going down that road. I know all too well nfpa standards are minimum and do not keep up with modern conditions or technology.

Just as an update spoke with HAI rep. There is not currently a way to tie in hardwire smokes. I will need to get a receiver and wireless or z wave smokes to replace the builder installed ones. Thanks for all the information I'm new to the site and everything has been so helpful

dhull3 said:

Well from the prospective of a firefighter a "smoke alarm" is better than a "smoke detector" for both life safety and property conservation. One gets help on the immediately and the other does not. But I'm not going down that road. I know all too well nfpa standards are minimum and do not keep up with modern conditions or technology.

Just as an update spoke with HAI rep. There is not currently a way to tie in hardwire smokes. I will need to get a receiver and wireless or z wave smokes to replace the builder installed ones. Thanks for all the information I'm new to the site and everything has been so helpful

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Sorry to say, fire fighter or not, your terminology and understanding is flawed or confused. I'm presently NICET 3 certified and presently working on my NICET 4 and 20 years of system design and installation.
 
Further reading and reference: http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2008/10/smoke-alarm-or-smoke-detector.html
 
Smoke alarms are generally one of the lowest form of devices. They are local and NOT connected to a system or FACP or intended to be monitored. Smoke detectors are designed to be interconnected and report back to a system. UL listings make very clear what the differences beyond that are.
 
The NEC and NFPA are not system installation or design standards, they never were intended as such and never will be a prescriptive document. They only provide the permissible minimums allowable to be installed. Most building codes take the minimums and add to them.
 
In your specific case, the suggestion was made to remove the existing smoke alarms and replace them with suitable smoke detectors. You're going to have at least a 14/3 between them, and hopefully if your locale didn't adopt the practice of running a branch circuit device to the smoke alarm circuit (which some have, though not a code mandate). The worst case, would be you have a 14/2 from the panel to the smoke alarm circuit and hopefully no branch devices connected. Pull the feed from the breaker box, move to a 4" square, and pull a new 18/4 from the FACP to the box, then the remaining NPLF cabling would be suitable for a compliant 2 wire fire loop, assuming you put components with sounders and configure a tandem ring.
 
That would be a far better and more robust solution than a Zwave (not the right product for life safety) or wireless (no tandem ring or compliance for the spirit of the code). The only item within question is whether or not your AHJ will permit you to remove the existing smoke alarms and replace them with a compliant installation of smoke detectors (which can easily exceed the operating characteristics of smoke alarms). The point would be, a properly installed smoke detector system connected to a FACP is a far better installation compared to a smoke alarm system. That said, it becomes a discussion point between yourself and the AHJ to sign off on the modifications to the property as they signed the CO.
 
The cost to go to the wireless devices you stated simply does not make economic sense compared to what could really be done via the existing infrastructure for a more robust and reliable system. You only have 2 items to check for, that would be if there's a branch circuit connected or if you can get an 18/4 from your panel to your electrical panel. The rest is easy and elementary installation assuming the locations as chosen by the electrician are appropriate to reuse.

dhull3 said:

Well from the prospective of a firefighter a "smoke alarm" is better than a "smoke detector" for both life safety and property conservation. One gets help on the immediately and the other does not. But I'm not going down that road. I know all too well nfpa standards are minimum and do not keep up with modern conditions or technology.

Just as an update spoke with HAI rep. There is not currently a way to tie in hardwire smokes. I will need to get a receiver and wireless or z wave smokes to replace the builder installed ones. Thanks for all the information I'm new to the site and everything has been so helpful

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Its not X is better than Y or vise versa. Your builder supplied alarms are simple, and sensitive, typically ionization types. Replace the battery when they beep and your good to go. They are designed to go off quickly, even burnt toast will do it. They will wake you up and get you out of the house. The next person the buys your house can figure them out as well, so they don't die.
 
A panel can certainly wake you up to, but they are designed to be monitored, so the fire department is called. They are carefull, and only call the fire department when its REALLY a fire. Some verify the alarm, and most are photoelectric type, less bothered by the burnt toast. The fire department doesn't like to be bothered by toast.
 
There certainly are wireless smoke alarms. The Omni supports two wireless receivers, the HAI variety the 45A00-1 and the GE version the 42A00-2. Both have wireless smoke alarms available. I use the GE version, and the GE smoke alarms are about $70. Certainly more than a wired alarm sensor but also very simple to install, just mount them on the wall so you save on wiring labor. your choice.  This is the GE version on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0010ED38Q/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/183-8422520-7738714
Batteries last maybe 2 years. The panel alerts you when they need replacing.

It is very difficult these days to post what actually is to counter the abundance of selling rhetoric in what appears in a promotion for an automation or security product these days. 
 
It isn't eye catching enough I guess.  It isn't really what folks want to see.
 
Surely if Staples (or any big box store) promotes automation life and safety devices it must be the place to shop.
 
Looking at another forum this morning with a search word of Z-Wave alarm.
 
Staples has a Z Wave Alarm for $29.99
 
Going to the product that they are selling and promoting doesn't specifically state to utilize the device for a life and safety DIY device.
 
Product Details LinearLinc Z-Wave Siren Strobe
 


Z-Wave enabled 105dB Siren and 10 lux Strobe with red lens. AC powered with rechargeable battery backup.

• Loud 105 dB audible alarm
• Bright 10 lux strobe with red lens for hearing impaired appilications
• For use in non-life safety security and alerting applications
• AC powered with rechargable NiMH battery backup
• 3 user settable operating modes: Siren & Strobe, Siren only and Strobe only
• Programmable auto shut off timing; 30, 60, 120 seconds or never
• Tamper switch
• Extends range of Z-Wave network by acting as a repeater
• Z-Wave certified for assured compatibility

Interesting that the only comment on the device relates to it's appearance versus it's function. 
 
Really what would most folks use the device for anyways? 
 
 

I picked up a pair of First Alert ZCombo models (smoke & CO) to replace my 6+ year old CO detectors.  Both paired up pretty easily with a Smart Things hub I've been testing.  Upside is they report their battery life and the app will nag me when they're low.  Hopefully saving me from the 3am head-tilt-where's-that-effing-beep-coming-from search.

They're in addition to the hard-wired smokes and heat detectors.

What with how tight modern houses are, you can't be too careful about monitoring against CO poisoning.

wkearney99 said:

I picked up a pair of First Alert ZCombo models (smoke & CO) to replace my 6+ year old CO detectors.  Both paired up pretty easily with a Smart Things hub I've been testing.  Upside is they report their battery life and the app will nag me when they're low.  Hopefully saving me from the 3am head-tilt-where's-that-effing-beep-coming-from search.

They're in addition to the hard-wired smokes and heat detectors.

What with how tight modern houses are, you can't be too careful about monitoring against CO poisoning.

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Something is always better than nothing, but I think what separates some wireless from other wireless is supervision. If you took that smoke/co detector and quickly unpluged it and pulled out any battery, would the Smart Things hub let you know? That is the important part for a smoke or co alarm. If its supervised, its as good as most wireless things out there.

Personally I would just leave the contractor installed smokes and add your own stuff to the Omni Pro IIe. 
 
You can go wired or wireless with your Omnipro IIe panel; it is up to you. 
 
Here I added wired CO/smokes to my OmniPro 2 more as a learning experience than anything else.
 
One thing you do not want to do is circumvent your life and safety stuff.