Elk M1G - Telular TG-1b or TG-1 Express

[jlegan]

All,

I am looking for a cell only solution for my new M1G install that I will be performing in a couple of months. I have decided on one of Telular's units but cannot for the life of me figure out why someone would choose one over the other (TG-1B vs TG-1 Express). I am going to be doing all of the wiring myself before the drywall goes up so I will have the ability to mount whichever I choose in my attic and run the cable down to the basement where the M1G will be. Has anyone done an install with both of these? Pros. cons? I spoke to AlarmRelay and they said they will service both so I am covered from a central station standpoint. Any insight is appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[russban]

All,

I am looking for a cell only solution for my new M1G install that I will be performing in a couple of months. I have decided on one of Telular's units but cannot for the life of me figure out why someone would choose one over the other (TG-1B vs TG-1 Express). I am going to be doing all of the wiring myself before the drywall goes up so I will have the ability to mount whichever I choose in my attic and run the cable down to the basement where the M1G will be. Has anyone done an install with both of these? Pros. cons? I spoke to AlarmRelay and they said they will service both so I am covered from a central station standpoint. Any insight is appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim

The TG-1B is their older model that has it's own power supply transformer and back up battery. The TG-1 Express is the latest model that is smaller, and uses the panels power and backup battery to power itself. It is also designed to use Cat-5E cable to run it's power and phone capture from the alarm panel on a single cable, that they call SLIC. (stands for Single Line Interface Cable) Not really any difference to speak of, the TG-1 Express is just their "latest and greatest".

 

[jlegan]

Thanks Russ, that is the same conclusion I came to, thus my surprise at their pricing. I will get the TG-1 Express and a second battery for the Elk.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Del91574]

The big thing is to keep in mind all backup communication methods draw different currents when idle compared to transmitting, so that needs to be factored into the aux. power draw.

Also, the TG-1E and similar capture type units should have additional conductors pulled for the supervisory relay to be connected to the panel.

 

[jlegan]

Del,

I was planning on running a 22/4 and CAT6 to the location, will that cover me?

Would you mind if I paste my whole order here for you to look over?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[mikejrc]

You will not be able to use the Telguard interactive service with the TG1 express, the M1 is not a supported panel. The interactive service allows you to arm and disarm using a smart phone and it gives you open/close status. This answer came from their tech support people not from any dealer.


The M1 is supported if you use the TG1 express as a simple dial capture cell backup. By using one Cat cable you will provide phone and power from the M1 to the TG1.
If you want to enable the supervisory features then you will need a separate 4 conductor wire.

 

[Del91574]

I'd pull at least 6 conductors plus the Cat. cable to the unit and separate the power out of the Cat cable depending on the length of the run. That unit will draw 200mA while communicating, which in my experience has been at least 15-30 seconds once the dialer capture has ended, length of message etc. Generally I'd call that too high of a load on a 24 or 26awg pair, but I run conservative and safe.

Averaging a 150' run, which is within reason if you put the telular in a 2nd floor closet-highest point, you're past a 20% voltage drop, not good.

The M1 is supported across the board for telgard products for communication, the Telgard interactive is supported for the M1, you need to set up the panel for CID format only, enable open/close reports and wire a zone for a maintained keyswitch and have a programmable output for armed status, typically an LED type program on other panels. I have multiple M1's and EZ-8's with Telgard interactive running fine, with my Telgard rep's blessing. The only thing Telgard can't support is tell you how to specifically program the panel (easy) and wire it for the keyswitch and output...but both are pretty easy to accomplish with the rules and the maintained keyswitch zone type.

Telgard interactive will work universally with any panel that supports CID, open/close, a maintained keyswitch zone type, and finally a programmable output for armed status (LED armed, typically).

 

[jlegan]

Ah, thats a shame about Telguard Interactive, it is one of the key features I was looking forward to (software engineer by trade). Is there any way to enable this functionality with the M1G (by purchasing another module or 3rd party solution)?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[mikejrc]

I have some info that may be useful.... http://www.cocoontec...=1

yes it may be possible to make it work, but I have not played with it, the problem is that most control panels have an output that switches based on the arm/disarm status, the ELK can do the same but according to the Telguard tech I talked to, you need an output that uses one wire (negative to ground thats what he said), the ELK outputs work with two wires (+ and -). They are more designed to drive relays and other applications. You would have to find a module that connects to any of the outputs on the M1 (7 to 16), then that module would have to replicate a single output neg to ground.

 

[jlegan]

My father-in-law is an electrical engineer and is itching for a project

 

[mikejrc]

My father-in-law is an electrical engineer and is itching for a project

this is the only way I think it could work, I found this diagram inside some installation manual, but when I questioned one of the Telguard's tech on the phone about it, I was told to discard it, then again the person was under the impression I was using a regular panel not an M1.

I think it could work since it seems all NEG terminals in the M1 have the same potential. I figured a way to wire my motion sensors using the onboard relay, so when my system is disarmed my motions are not powered without causing the zones to open (the panel still reads my EOL resistor). When the system is armed then they get powered again and it works as usual. That means that the NEG zone terminals are at the same potential of the NEG power supply terminal.

So on this diagram you could take the positive lead of one output to the TG1 terminal, then the negative lead from that same output jumping to the neg supply terminal (this is the one that supplies power from the M1 to the TG1).

My guess is that the neg/ground terminal in the TG1 is also at the same potential. Since I dont have a TG1 I cant experiment with this.

 

[Del91574]

Almost all the panels on the NA market, with the exception of those that are sold with different software for the world market, carry a common negative connection with the ZCOM and aux power common terminal. Nature of the beast. The only exceptions I know of are some Bosch, DSC and Paradox, which have a switched positive connection. That's the reason why you can wire a motion as a 3 wire and have it EOLR supervised for circuit and power.

In the case of the M1, it's a simple relay (IE:924) to be triggered by the onboard triggers or you can use a dry contact relay, either on the board or output expander to switch the negative (ZCOM or -COM to aux power) Makes 0 difference if the triggers are positive or negative. Then it's programming a rule to fire the relay or trigger based on the system being armed or disarmed, then the connection for a zone programmed as Maintained keyswitch. Simple as that.

I have M1G's, EZ8's and panels that were around far before the Elk, HAI, and well before the TG-1E and smartphone apps that have the Telgard Express and the do factually work otherwise I'd have a boatload of ticked off clients that had a useless app and recurring charge for something that doesn't work. Same goes with the older panels I cited, the only thing in common is the feedback, CID format, open/close, and the ability to support a keyswitch.

The main reason Telgard doesn't list the M1 or even the HAI is because of the variables (rules) involved, which honestly, that diagram answers, the only variable is getting your panel to properly switch the negative for arming feedback, which is done different ways with multiple panels....they're only responsible for their device and service, not how to interface it with your particular hardware and program your hardware.

 

[jlegan]

Del,

Thank you for the education. On that word, I will ensure that I order an sensitive relay (ELK-924) when I place my order with Martin later this week. Is there anything else I might need (minus your cable recommendations) to make this all work with the primary cell option and being able to use Telguard Interactive?

For the record, here is what I am planning on ordering (note: I am unsure I will need the secondary wireless expander, but given the shear number of wireless sensors in the house, I figure I redundant expander placed on the other end of the house (opposite corners, opposite floors) could not hurt and since I am running the cable without the drywall being up, I might as well take the opportunity. The URL below is the PDF if my cart at AO.

http://www.houlatek....Elk%20Order.pdf

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Del91574]

I'd centrally locate the receiver. With the ground plane antennas you can run pretty far and I doubt highly that you'd have an issue. The only thing with the Micras is to make sure the antenna is extended, no range problems otherwise.

You have 3 different styles of keypads. The M1KP(Blue) will be the only ones that support the internal prox reader, and you're not going to need the pigtail unless you're connecting an external reader to the M1KP's or a reader to the KP2, but not the Elk internal reader(s).

As far as the internal speakers, you've got an odd # of them, which will make getting an appropriate impedence for the M1 difficult. You're best off to go with either 8 (for an 8 ohm load, correctly wired) or 11 for a 4 ohm load at the M1.

The SAW wireless is a hit or miss for the M1G. It'll technically work, however the tolerance for the frequency is too wide for the M1RF2G and could cause some issues. The better solution would be to hardwire a flood detector into a universal crystal transmitter and learn it as a NO circuit. I don't have my GE sourcebook with me to look up to see if GE has a crystal flood detector, but I'm sure they must.

You're also only going to need a single hub, provided you run Cat 5 to the keypads. I prefer running 22/8 personally, but I like the advantages of a heavier cable and I typically forgo using the hubs because if you follow proper 485 wiring and pull enough conductors to the bus devices, it really doesn't have too many benefits besides the plug in factor. The only exception is a retrofit bus for using a single 4/22 homerun to a bus device.

The only other thing, which is personal preference, is I don't like the GE wireless CO detectors, I feel that they're garbage personally, but that's me and having installed lots of other units. I'd also stick to a single type of wire, solid or stranded. It's personal preference to what you use, I use solid 99% of the time, but people tend to nick the conductors or over-flex them, which leads to them breaking. Stranded, while flexible, needs to be paid attention to when twisting and installing under lugs and terminals for stray whiskers, also somewhat harder to use in a retrofit, depending on the wire run. There's no difference electrically in the two, and what you're technically installing is permanent building wiring, so flexibility really isn't high on the list IMHO.

 

[mikejrc]

Del,

Thank you for the education. On that word, I will ensure that I order an sensitive relay (ELK-924) when I place my order with Martin later this week. Is there anything else I might need (minus your cable recommendations) to make this all work with the primary cell option and being able to use Telguard Interactive?

For the record, here is what I am planning on ordering (note: I am unsure I will need the secondary wireless expander, but given the shear number of wireless sensors in the house, I figure I redundant expander placed on the other end of the house (opposite corners, opposite floors) could not hurt and since I am running the cable without the drywall being up, I might as well take the opportunity. The URL below is the PDF if my cart at AO.

http://www.houlatek....Elk%20Order.pdf

Thanks,

Jim

Would you share a diagram of how you plan to use the ELK-924 to active the TG1 terminal indicating arm/disarm status. I know how to do the keyswitch. I really dont see based on the diagram I posted why a relay is needed. To use the ELK-924 you have to supply 12v to energize it, then trigger it by using a neg or possitive trigger, on the other side there is a DPDT contact. That trigger is the one that most control panels have but the M1 doesnt. You can bypass it by jumping the neg or pos trigger which will transform this relay into the same one on board (output 3) with the difference of having an extra set of contacts. The ELK outputs simply supply 12v to something. If the TG1's TRIP contact is just an internal dry contact to ground or neg, then the M1's onboard output 3 (relay) could be used, and is also activated by rules. i'm interested in this solution.
Thanks