Frustrated with quality music streaming

[dgage]

I didn't realize that in my mind, my simple requirements would not be available in the marketplace, without spending thousands on a custom system.  I have Sonos with Pandora One (paid account) and have been satisfied with it via the Sonos Play 5.  Technically I don't think it sounds that great but it was a simple solution for our needs.  However, I just realized today that the combination doesn't meet my simple 3 requirements, specifically #2, for a new set of kitchen speakers I'm putting in.
 
1. Stream music stations like radio instead of downloading and selecting specific artists/songs.  No commercials would be nice.
2. Stream high quality throughout home
3. Bypass explicit content (9 year old kids & friends that come over)
 
Simple right?  Wrong.

• Pandora One (paid account) will play 192 kbs streams, which is good enough for me (I think), but will only do that from a computer.  If you are using some other home device like Sonos or a receiver, it will only stream at 128 kbs.  Mobile devices like phones or tablets are usually streamed at 64-96 kbs.
• Mog was recommended as having high quality, including with Sonos.  Unfortunately there is no way to filter explicit content.  People have been requesting filter for over a year.
• Spotify is about the same as Mog in terms of quality and lack of explicit content filtering.  People have been requesting filter for over a year.

At this point, I am looking for a solution that would allow me to stream multiple Pandora stations around the house at a high quality, which really means a computer or custom based solution.  If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it.  Barring specific suggestions, I'd like to explore a computer based solution first.  I like Sonos but if it isn't going to add value, I'm ready to ditch the system.  Maybe that would get me part of the way to buying one of the "custom" media streamers.
 
I bought a pair of high quality Definitive Technology UIS RCS II ceiling speakers for my kitchen, primarily to play music and some for TV.  I had looked at the arguably higher quality Triad speakers but decided that was for more discerning listening and content and needed higher quality components to shine.  The Definitives should be high enough quality that even 192 kbs content will be noticeable but should work well for background music.  While 320 kbs would be great, 128 kbs is simply unacceptable.
 
So here is an option that I would appreciate some thoughts on:

• Use a computer with a MSound Delta M1010 multi-channel card to output to multi-channel amps and the kitchen speakers will be driven by a Denon 1910. 
• Be able to play multiple audio streams via Pandora.  Is there an app or way to have multiple Pandora apps or web pages open?
• I have CQC.  I would need it or another app be setup for Pandora station selection.  I have Windows 7 WMC "server" (i7 quad core, 32 GB), Windows 8 23" touchscreen on kitchen wall, Surface RT, iPads, and iPods as potential controls.

Thanks for reading and I would appreciate any input or ideas.
 
David

 

[bpwwer]

I don't know if this will be of value, but I'm using a couple of Roku streamers connected to a Russound whole house distribution system.  A quick search of what bit rate is used with the Roku was mixed. Initially it was 128 kbs but that was years ago. There was some indication that they were working to up that and some reports that it was now 192.
 
I'm using HA software with a custom driver to allow some control over the Roku from the Russound keypads.  Works for my simple use case.

 

[dgage]

Thanks Bob.  I can't find anywhere that definitely states Pandora is streaming 192 to the Roku.  Actually, I came across a couple of reviews that said the music quality out of the computer was better than the Roku.
 
However, in my reviews I did come across someone that was using a HRT USB DAC (http://www.amazon.com/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-Resolution/dp/B0038O4UFQ) and was very pleased by the difference in quality with Pandora One.
 
Which got me to thinking, I am really only concerned with the higher quality Pandora in the kitchen and living room because that is where my better speakers are located.  I could use my kitchen computer to control Pandora there and use a different system for the rest of the house.  However, at that point Sonos starts to fall apart as one of the features I really liked about it was the syncing ability.  I'll think about it some more but I may just sell the Sonos systems.  And Roku could potentially be a possible solution as the price is definitely better than Sonos, it's just a matter of seeing how to automate it with CQC or another software package.
 
Are you using Elve or Main Lobby to control the Roku with Russound?
 
David

 

[tmbrown97]

Just something to throw out there - I'm not sure which phones you guys carry, but in my house anyone who would want different content would also have their own cell phone - and we just stream via AirPlay on the iPhone.  Then each of us can be playing a different Pandora station to whichever target we wish.
 
Someday I plan to extend the system into a real multi-zone system where I can choose one of multiple airplay targets so I can get better multi-room; right now the only way I can get multiple rooms playing the same source via airplay is if I do it from a computer (Mac w/Airfoil lets me stream to all zones at once).

 

[bpwwer]

Thanks Bob.  I can't find anywhere that definitely states Pandora is streaming 192 to the Roku.  Actually, I came across a couple of reviews that said the music quality out of the computer was better than the Roku.
 
Are you using Elve or Main Lobby to control the Roku with Russound?
 
David

 
Yeah, I found a couple blogs that said it maybe was 192 but nothing definitive.  The quality is fine for the speakers I have installed but they're fairly low-end.  The rooms that Pandora is used most in have the single speakers with two tweeters so they sort of do stereo.
 
I'm using Elve. The Roku can accept some commands over the network and some of the apps on it can also accept commands.  The driver just sends the commands that mimic the remote buttons.  So when I turn on a zone with the Russound, it sends a command to turn on the source which translates to the Roku commands to activate Pandora and start playing the current station.  I have a couple of buttons on the Russound hooked up to thumbs up/thumbs down and skip.  It's mostly my wife that listens to this and it works most of the time. A couple of times, I think when the Pandora app was updated, it didn't seem to know the current station and would start but not start playing any music (then I need to turn on the TV to see what's wrong).
 
I have a second Roku also hooked up that is tied to a different source input on the Russound and that on starts a local media streaming app that start playing from a local playlist.  This is the one I use most.
 
The Roku has both analog and HDMI out so the HDMI out goes to the TV/AVR and the analog out goes to the Russound.   The Rokus are also used for streaming Netflix which is about the only video streaming we actually use. 
 
Controlling Roku streamers is really easy. It can be queried for the installed apps and the commands are simple HTTP POST messages.  Creating a driver/plug-in for MainLobby or CQC should be trivial. 

 

[gatchel]

Maybe this list of streaming service stats will help you:

https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1050#pandora

I currently have 6 sonos zones and the system has worked flawlessly. Since I am not an iDevice fan, Airplay was not an option for me. I recently set up 3 Airport Express units at a friends house and if I didn't have streaming I would probably choose Airplay nowadays. For $100 per zone you can't go wrong.

I have always felt streaming music was just an easy and quick way to hear something playing. Any time I want a perfect stream I resort to the Sonos and my FLAC rips. Yes, I still buy CD's...sometimes...

 

[dgage]

Gatchel,
 
Thanks for the link. I looked at the various ones and it looks like Rhapsody might be a winner.  It has 192 kbps quality, which is decent enough and it has parental controls that block custom channels where explicit material MIGHT be set to play.  Rhapsody is more expensive than Pandora and has a limit of 1/3 licensed mobile devices depending on plan.  Rhapsody has unlimited home listening, which I think is categorized as certain receivers or devices like Sonos.  Here is a link (http://i.real.com/product/help/rhapv4rev2_a/en/Content/Subscriptions.htm) to the computer and mobile device authorizations and other details for each plan.  On the positive side it looks like you can download music to the authorized devices for offline listening.
 
So an option that might work well for me is to use Rhapsody for home listening and keep Pandora for my kids to listen to on their devices. 
 
Regarding Flac, I use Easy CD-DA Extractor to rip exact copies of my CDs to my "server" in both Flac and MP3 formats.  However, I actually enjoy listening to random music in the genre I choose.  Also, my CD collection has a large number of hip-hop and rap albums with explicit lyrics and I would prefer not to have my kids hear that.  I especially don't want those popping up when we have friends and family over.  Further, with streaming, I no longer buy movies and rarely music.  If I want to get the movie experience on my 5.1 system, I go down to Redbox and pick up a bluray for the night. 
 
And oh yeah, I have some Apple devices but I work for a company that frowns on them so I finally gave into the peer pressure and am carrying a Windows Phone 8 device.   So no soup  Airplay for me.
 
Thanks for the ideas.  Keep them coming.
 
David

 

[manxam]

Have you considered using Songza instead of Pandora? Firstly it's free, second the quality is excellent, third there's no commercials, and finally the concierge service is pretty damned cool
 
Seeing as how you have a Sonos it's very tightly interegrated with their app(s) and wouldn't require you to purchase new hardware.

 

[gatchel]

Gatchel,
 
Thanks for the link. I looked at the various ones and it looks like Rhapsody might be a winner.  It has 192 kbps quality, which is decent enough and it has parental controls that block custom channels where explicit material MIGHT be set to play.  Rhapsody is more expensive than Pandora and has a limit of 1/3 licensed mobile devices depending on plan.  Rhapsody has unlimited home listening, which I think is categorized as certain receivers or devices like Sonos.  Here is a link (http://i.real.com/product/help/rhapv4rev2_a/en/Content/Subscriptions.htm) to the computer and mobile device authorizations and other details for each plan.  On the positive side it looks like you can download music to the authorized devices for offline listening.
 
So an option that might work well for me is to use Rhapsody for home listening and keep Pandora for my kids to listen to on their devices. 
 
Regarding Flac, I use Easy CD-DA Extractor to rip exact copies of my CDs to my "server" in both Flac and MP3 formats.  However, I actually enjoy listening to random music in the genre I choose.  Also, my CD collection has a large number of hip-hop and rap albums with explicit lyrics and I would prefer not to have my kids hear that.  I especially don't want those popping up when we have friends and family over.  Further, with streaming, I no longer buy movies and rarely music.  If I want to get the movie experience on my 5.1 system, I go down to Redbox and pick up a bluray for the night. 
 
And oh yeah, I have some Apple devices but I work for a company that frowns on them so I finally gave into the peer pressure and am carrying a Windows Phone 8 device.   So no soup  Airplay for me.
 
Thanks for the ideas.  Keep them coming.
 
David

I hear you...It's tough because in "our" world there is no reason that they can't stream 320K on any service. There is no reason why the hardware shouldn't be able to handle it. I am not sure if it really is a Sonos limitation or not but the only thing I could think of is that for streaming there is some sort of memory buffer. If they design a device to stream at 128K with a 10 second buffer for drop outs then at double the data rate you would effectively have half of the time available as your buffer. I really don't know what the issue is, just speculating. As usual, no one really does an excellent job of giving you something that is really good any more. They give you something that is just barely adequate. I'm sure the RIAA comes in to play here somewhere too...

 

[Neurorad]

Firstly, I don't know if you could hear the difference, in your kitchen, between 128 kbps and 192 kbps.  Is there some way you could test it?  Rip some FLACS at each resolution?
 
I'm in the same boat as you, as far as explicit content.  I wish my Nuvo music server would support 'locking out' of specific SiriusXM stations.
 
I grew up in a house without specific 'content filtering', and I turned out OK, or better than OK.  Maybe some explicit content, with some parental guidance, is better than no explicit content.
 
I have a tin foil hat feeling that the music industry may be blocking high resolution streaming, in an effort to promote sales.  Just a crazy theory.  But, like you, I would gladly pay for the higher quality streams, if they were available.

 

[dgage]

manxam - Songza looks good but fails the parental controls or ability to block explicit lyrics.
 
gatchel,- I'm sure it is a policy or contracts issue as it isn't a technical issue.  I believe Sonos is 320 kbps with Spotify and Mog and is 192 kbps with Rhapsody.
 
Neurorad - I grew up on Army bases listening to unfiltered rap and getting into fights.  I'd say I turned out very well but I'm partial to myself.  Frankly, I just turned the big 40 and while I don't feel or act old, I think I am getting there because I tire of listening to songs with explicit lyrics now.  Or maybe it is because I have a son and daughter and don't look forward to how I acted as a kid, not that I was bad. "Luke, you're becoming your father."
 
Now regarding whether I can hear the difference between 128 kbps and 192 kbps, I sure better be able to with the speakers I just bought.   The Definitive Technology UIW RCS II are supposed to be a nice upper level non-audiophile theater speaker.  I haven't heard it but I have always liked the Definitive speakers and actually decided against nicer Triad speakers as I knew I wouldn't be giving them content worthy of their pedigree.  Plus I saved some money, which is always good.  I just ordered them so it will be a week or two until I get the speakers installed.  It is a good idea for me to test the quality so I can determine whether I can hear a difference.  And like I said, I better be able to tell a difference or my investment in speakers was poor or my ears are getting old because I used to consider myself an audiophile.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions.  So far it looks like Rhapsody seems to be the best quality streaming solution for Sonos that also has parental controls.  I just signed up for a trial of Rhapsody so I'll see how that works.  And since Pandora isn't too expensive, I'll likely keep that so the kids can use it with their devices since Rhapsody has a 3 computer limit and 1/3 mobile device limit depending on subscription plan.
 
David
 
David

 

[manxam]

<rant on>
Ok, what sort of music are your childen listening to have have explicit lyrics? I assume it's either hip hop or metal as they're basically the only two that would be of concern. Having said that, I think the onus is on you, the parent, not the streaming media service to determine what's appropriate.
If you've done your job right your children should be responsible enough not to listen to what they're not supposed to.
 
While growing up, if I listened (or watched) anything that I wasn't supposed to I'd get smacked. So that pretty much means I didn't...
 
For generations we've been raised in this manner and it "just worked". Why are we now passing the responsibility of moralistic ideals onto technology that TELLS us what's appropriate and what isn't.
 
I'll decide what they should and shouldn't hear/watch/do and you better believe they listen!
</rant off>
 
Seriously though, is there really that much content out there besides the above two genres that have that much swearing? I LOVE heavy metal/industrial so understand that well. I know Hip Hop is usually far worse. All the mainstream "rock" crap is usually pretty clean, as is the mainstream R&B stuff. If they listen to dance/electronic/dubstep they're good too. Country is clean if you don't mind the constant talk of losing wives/dogs/homes/trailers

 

[dgage]

manxam,

I don't disagree with you and I think that is partially what neurorad and I were saying about turning out fine even if we did listen to explicit content. I actually read one post from a mother complaining that her 14 year old was a monster because of the explicit music he listened to on one of the services. I find that to be BS. Explicit music or games and whatever else will have little influence if parenting correctly. All manner of societal issues should start with looking in the mirror.

So lets answer one of your other questions regarding how much explicit content is out there. Barring our genre choices, popular top 40 music is a mix of pop, rock, hip hop, and rap usually. I don't spend much time in my car so I usually listen to the radio. There have been times on business travel that I've rented a car with XM/Sirius. Sometimes a song I like on radio will come on the satellite radio and all of a sudden I'm surprised. The same clean version of the song I like on the radio is now annoying due to all the foul language. And others have mentioned that same thing but that is a personal issue/choice. And the explicit content is like that on a lot/all of the hip/hop and rap channels on Sirius. And I''m not some prude that has a problem with these sorts of things as I do curse sometimes although I wish I didn't.

So my request is not just to block explicit lyrics for my kids, it is the following:

* I don't want to hear songs anymore with explicit lyrics
* I don't want to worry about songs with explicit lyrics when we have friends and families over
* I'd prefer my kids not listen to it and the more control the better

So I don't disagree with your rant but I'd like more control of that choice. Also, I have a lot of hip-hop and rap albums and I don't think I've ever bought a clean version (my choice) so I wonder if that is part of the reason I don't buy albums anymore. Hmmm. Thanks for the difference of opinion. I like it.

David

 

[Neurorad]

My 9 year, for a while, liked putting on Pandora Black Eyed Peas. Seems like there was a lot of swearing. Also seemed like they often played a song from Starf*ucker a little too often; keypads with metadata are usually awesome.

With the rise of the internet, I don't think there is any stop to exposing kids to adult words, and themes, at a very young age. There need to be open discussions, not avoidance. No, my 9 year old doesn't have open access to the internet. Well, not that I'm aware. I'm sure it happens already.

 

[manxam]

Alright, only give them access to Mozart's vault on Sonos. Aparrently classical music helps develop cognitive skills and is supposed to be calming. Force some culture on your childen and turn off that f***ng (sorry, I just had to!) hip-hop! No wonder you worry about what your childen listen to
 
Speaking of which, I'd love to hear any DMX song bleeped for radio. It would just be a guy barking like a dog every few seconds