Gen1 UPB vs. Gen2 UPB

[Digger]

I think Ano and Steve have every right to be upset after spending so much money and to have problems. While it may not be common to have problems with UPB like X-10 or Insteon it can happen but it should not. People pay a lot of money for the product and it should work as advertised.

For device failures the product should be exchanged by the mfg. under warranty. If it is a known issue the mfg exchange it beyond the normal warranty.

 

[JonW]

I think Ano and Steve have every right to be upset after spending so much money and to have problems. While it may not be common to have problems with UPB like X-10 or Insteon it can happen but it should not. People pay a lot of money for the product and it should work as advertised.

For device failures the product should be exchanged by the mfg. under warranty. If it is a known issue the mfg exchange it beyond the normal warranty.

You're saying that the devices should work as advertised in every environment/situation? That's not realistic. Even if the PIM is not showing high noise in their (Ano & Steve) environments, there is obviously something that is killing the signal. This is an environmental issue, not a product issue. It is well known that UPB (Gen I and Gen II) work very reliably in most situations - unfortunately, there are situations where it may not work, but that is going to be because of the environment.

Ano or Steve - what type of troubleshooting have you done to isolate the source of the noise (or lack of signal)? How about shutting off all breakers in your panel except for two (1 on each leg) and seeing if the signal level improves across those two legs. Then start turning on circuits, breaker by breaker and see if the signal degrades when a certain circuit is activated.

Another thought is that if you have scenes that are being transmitted from keypads to other lighting circuits that are failing, can you start swapping the order of some breakers to get switches onto the same power leg?

Maybe it's possible that the power companies transformers are causing signal issues. Are both of you far (or close) to the transformers? It would be interesting to know what brand of switching equipment the power company is using.

Having lived through this with X10, I do know how frustrating it is to want to get to a perfectly communicating home. Knowing how well UPB can work, I really think there is something in your environment that is causing your issues.

 

[Digger]

UPB transmits farther (over a mile), is less susceptible to powerline noise and capacitive attenuation (signal reduction) than other technologies for three reasons:

Pulse Position Modulation is a highly reliable time based method of sending bits; it narrows the possibility of power line noise affecting communication, unlike X-10 and other carrier modulation technologies.

UPB pulses on the power line are approximately 40 volts; more than five times greater than the 5 to 7 volt signals of X-10.

UPB transmits at low (4 to 40 kHz) frequencies, carrying much more power than higher frequency technologies like X-10 transmits that transmits at 120 kHz.

When put on one phase of a home’s two phase power line, the signals are so strong they go out to the street side transformer and are induced on the opposite phase, returning back to the home. Since UPB transmits at a low frequency, it does not affect other powerline devices or appliance/loads.

* Reliability is defined as the percentage of transmitter/receiver pairs that correctly operate upon initial installation. The UPB test units are randomly installed in the environment typical of the target market. This market is defined as the single-family residential market in the US, homes with a median size of 2500 Sq, Ft. This environment is defined to be the existing base of homes, without any modifications, which means there should be no “fixing” the electrical system of the residence by adding couplers, repeaters or filtering.

Based on the advertising I can see why people would expect UPB to work and have plenty of signal and function much better than any other PLC based system.

I am also one of the ones where I have no issues and no filters and that is the way it should be for everyone.

 

[JonW]

Based on the advertising I can see why people would expect UPB to work and have plenty of signal and function much better than any other PLC based system.

I am also one of the ones where I have no issues and no filters and that is the way it should be for everyone.

That's no different than car manufacturer claims. They say a car will do 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds. Top speed of 160 MPH.

But you live in a place that has snow on the ground 365 days per year. Is it the car manufacturers fault that you can never get the car to perform to the specifications due to your environment?


I too am someone who has very little problems with my UPB installation. I have devices at the end of 75 foot runs that are powered from my pool sub panel that runs two 220V pumps and I have no issues with them. When I first installed my UPB system in December of 2003, I had my PIM (mistakenly) plugged into a surge protector that was in turn plugged into an APC UPS. I programmed my whole house running the PIM through a surge protector and the UPS - that told me right there that I had made the right choice abandoning X10. For X10, I had at least 10 noise filters plugged into devices around the house. When I installed UPB I did not need any. Eventually, I had to add 2 SAI plug in filters for my plasma TV and my microwave, but nothing else.

The bottom line is that UPB does work in most circumstances. Where it doesn't work, there is obviously an environmental issue affecting it's performance. If the environment cannot be modified to get acceptable performance from UPB, then obviously UPB is the wrong technology choice for that installation.

 

[Digger]

Jon I went from Insteon which was "Craplinks" all of the way to UPB which has been as perfect as perfect can get. It works just as advertised and that is the way it should be. No device failures and you push a button and it works as set up. I paid for a product and I expect it to work.

For Steve to have several switches fail and SA to say it is a problem with a diode means they should have replaced those switches in or out of warranty because it is a poor design (it happens and mfgs should make good on it)

For Ano the couplers should have brought the signal over to the other phase period end of story. To have a weak signal at 1000 or more feet of wire could be understandable but to have all of the opposite phase devices have a weak signal when they advertise you should not even need a coupler because you should get a mile with their signal and through a transformer is an issue of the product not performing anywhere near as advertised.

I hope that SA Tech Support is actively working with Ano to get his system up and running correctly. I am sure he paid a lot of money expecting to get a product that works.

 

[ano]

For Ano the couplers should have brought the signal over to the other phase period end of story. To have a weak signal at 1000 or more feet of wire could be understandable but to have all of the opposite phase devices have a weak signal when they advertise you should not even need a coupler because you should get a mile with their signal and through a transformer is an issue of the product not performing anywhere near as advertised.

I hope that SA Tech Support is actively working with Ano to get his system up and running correctly. I am sure he paid a lot of money expecting to get a product that works.

My situation was as described by some others. You put the PIM on phase A and signal on that phase is perfect, on the other its 0. Reverse the PIM to the other phase, the opposite occurs.

Several years ago when I installed UPB, Simply Automated was great and even sent me some extra couplers to put in parallel with my first one and it helped a bit. With one coupler my opposite signal was maybe 2. With a second it was 3, with 3 couplers it was 4, sometimes. This is pretty marginal, but at the time active repeaters didn't exist. Anyway I lived with it, still much better than X-10.

I've also had a fair bit of SA failures, especially those UFR relay modules. They almost never last more than a year or two. I've had many SA switches loose their programming. Never any problems with PCS or HAI switches.

So now the repeater. HAI and PCS have them, and they might even be the same. From what I have seen, they will repeat a signal from the PIM to a Gen1 switch, but will not repeat a signal back from a Gen1 switch to the PIM. This is a good news/bad news situation. If you have the cross-phase signal problem, like I do, it does get the signal to the switch, BUT the switch can't reply through the repeater that it received the signal, so it looks like the switch is DOA to UPStart. Also, when UPStart is using a repeater which it sees, it does NOT see replies on the opposite phase, so adding a repeater actually prevents opposite phase Gen1 switches from working with UPStart, and they are not detected in setup mode. So if you use a repeater when you have poor cross-phase signal, you have to move any Gen1 switches to the same phase to program them with UPStart, then you can move them back to use them, but remember you won't get status back from them .

At this point I don't know if an HAI panel, or ELK panel, or Homeseer or CQC even make use of a repeater it you have one. I'll do more testing soon.

In the last few years I have contacted Simply Automated several times and never received a reply, and for years their web site wasn't updated, so I had doubts if they were even in business. I check recently and it has not only changed, but they even have new products, and, are you sitting down, they say they have new firmware that looks like it contains some Gen2 features, maybe repeater support, but they are not calling it Gen2 and details are sparse. Maybe someday we will even see a repeater that works with Gen1 switches, but probably not.

I've often wondered why I have a black-hole between phases, live in a typical suburban neighborhood, and I think the transformer is just across the street maybe 50' from my electrical panel. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll openly admit that my experience is limited to SAI - and it's been a mostly good experience. Only now, and only on 2 of my 40+ switches am I seeing signal issues - and only with the PIM plugged into the closet... When programming from other plugs, I was fine. I'm in a 4K Sq. Ft. House with over 60 switches.

I really hope I don't experience the problems Steve mentioned - but I'm a few weeks from knowing for sure. I'll be hooking up their inverting phase coupler soon.

I threw in the SAI FAQ only because it's another vendor's view - there's no way to know who's more truthful, so I'd rather hear it all and make the best choice for me.

 

[tenholde]

For Ano the couplers should have brought the signal over to the other phase period end of story. To have a weak signal at 1000 or more feet of wire could be understandable but to have all of the opposite phase devices have a weak signal when they advertise you should not even need a coupler because you should get a mile with their signal and through a transformer is an issue of the product not performing anywhere near as advertised.

I hope that SA Tech Support is actively working with Ano to get his system up and running correctly. I am sure he paid a lot of money expecting to get a product that works.

My situation was as described by some others. You put the PIM on phase A and signal on that phase is perfect, on the other its 0. Reverse the PIM to the other phase, the opposite occurs.

Several years ago when I installed UPB, Simply Automated was great and even sent me some extra couplers to put in parallel with my first one and it helped a bit. With one coupler my opposite signal was maybe 2. With a second it was 3, with 3 couplers it was 4, sometimes. This is pretty marginal, but at the time active repeaters didn't exist. Anyway I lived with it, still much better than X-10.

I've also had a fair bit of SA failures, especially those UFR relay modules. They almost never last more than a year or two. I've had many SA switches loose their programming. Never any problems with PCS or HAI switches.

So now the repeater. HAI and PCS have them, and they might even be the same. From what I have seen, they will repeat a signal from the PIM to a Gen1 switch, but will not repeat a signal back from a Gen1 switch to the PIM. This is a good news/bad news situation. If you have the cross-phase signal problem, like I do, it does get the signal to the switch, BUT the switch can't reply through the repeater that it received the signal, so it looks like the switch is DOA to UPStart. Also, when UPStart is using a repeater which it sees, it does NOT see replies on the opposite phase, so adding a repeater actually prevents opposite phase Gen1 switches from working with UPStart, and they are not detected in setup mode. So if you use a repeater when you have poor cross-phase signal, you have to move any Gen1 switches to the same phase to program them with UPStart, then you can move them back to use them, but remember you won't get status back from them .

At this point I don't know if an HAI panel, or ELK panel, or Homeseer or CQC even make use of a repeater it you have one. I'll do more testing soon.

In the last few years I have contacted Simply Automated several times and never received a reply, and for years their web site wasn't updated, so I had doubts if they were even in business. I check recently and it has not only changed, but they even have new products, and, are you sitting down, they say they have new firmware that looks like it contains some Gen2 features, maybe repeater support, but they are not calling it Gen2 and details are sparse. Maybe someday we will even see a repeater that works with Gen1 switches, but probably not.

I've often wondered why I have a black-hole between phases, live in a typical suburban neighborhood, and I think the transformer is just across the street maybe 50' from my electrical panel. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

My situation is similar to yours, but I get about 5-6 on the opposite phase. I am using BOTH the repeater and coupler, and UpStart sees GEN I switches on both phases. I've had a few failures with SAI, and they've been great about replacing failing switches.

tenholde

 

[drozwood90]

I think Ano and Steve have every right to be upset after spending so much money and to have problems. While it may not be common to have problems with UPB like X-10 or Insteon it can happen but it should not. People pay a lot of money for the product and it should work as advertised.

For device failures the product should be exchanged by the mfg. under warranty. If it is a known issue the mfg exchange it beyond the normal warranty.

I am not disagreeing. In fact, I said if I was having the same issues, I'd be pretty annoyed as well (my first paragraph, where I worked out how much it would have run me).

--Dan

 

[drozwood90]

My situation was as described by some others. You put the PIM on phase A and signal on that phase is perfect, on the other its 0. Reverse the PIM to the other phase, the opposite occurs.

Ano, I realize my post was WAAAY huge, but the important thing I wanted to point out to you...

I was trying to remember, and glad you posted what you did (quoted), are you willing to try xAP? If so, you could create TWO xAP "servers" one for each PIM. Then, at least you would have real time control over both phases. I'm not sure how programming would work...maybe you would need to program one phase, then switch to the other and "re-program" the network? At any rate, if you did this, you could then just send an xAP on/off and link control. This would allow the HA software to be able to send and receive on both phases.

I know Homeseer supports it, not sure about CQC. I have not used it yet, but I am moving towards that direction...at least for some devices.

Not perfect, but maybe it will get you by without having to replace all the switches in your home?

--Dan

 

[drozwood90]

That's no different than car manufacturer claims. They say a car will do 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds. Top speed of 160 MPH.

But you live in a place that has snow on the ground 365 days per year. Is it the car manufacturers fault that you can never get the car to perform to the specifications due to your environment?

Interesting point. I think the difference is, you KNOW that the car won't perform, as you can see the snow. Maybe it's the not knowing it is not going to work?

Using the car analogy, if one were to buy a car like that, determine that it wasn't "for" him, they generally take a loss on getting rid of it. Maybe now, you can return it within 30 days (I thought I saw one car company offering that...Dodge?)?

I think mostly, my experiences were 100% relating to this stuff. If something didn't work, at least with AutomatedOutlet, they let me return things...I was out shipping. That's actually how I got started. I was offered a great deal and a guarantee that if I tried this UPB stuff, if it didn't work, I could return it.

--Dan

 

[ano]

My situation is similar to yours, but I get about 5-6 on the opposite phase. I am using BOTH the repeater and coupler, and UpStart sees GEN I switches on both phases. I've had a few failures with SAI, and they've been great about replacing failing switches.

tenholde

Just having a repeater doesn't mean your system is really even using the repeater, at least in the backward direction. Its very deceptive. If your signal is 5 or 6, and you say GEN1 switches work on both phases of UPStart, it tells me that UPStart, and likely your home automation is not making full use of the repeater. If it was, your signal would be much higher than 5 or 6 AND UPStart would not see GEN1 switches on the opposite phase. In UPStart, you need to add the repeater to your network, then you need to enable UPStart to actually use the repeater.

Ano, I realize my post was WAAAY huge, but the important thing I wanted to point out to you...

I was trying to remember, and glad you posted what you did (quoted), are you willing to try xAP? If so, you could create TWO xAP "servers" one for each PIM. Then, at least you would have real time control over both phases. I'm not sure how programming would work...maybe you would need to program one phase, then switch to the other and "re-program" the network? At any rate, if you did this, you could then just send an xAP on/off and link control. This would allow the HA software to be able to send and receive on both phases.

I know Homeseer supports it, not sure about CQC. I have not used it yet, but I am moving towards that direction...at least for some devices.

Not perfect, but maybe it will get you by without having to replace all the switches in your home?

--Dan

I am not familiar with xAP, but in the early days of UPB, I remember Simply Automated trying a harness they made that could connect to two PIMs with one on each phase. I didn't test it myself, but the feedback was that it helped in some areas, but since it didn't repeat across phases, then switch to switch transmissions weren't improved. I use CQC now, so doubt that it would support it. The UPB plug-in isn't that robust as it is.

In my setup, I have a fair number of situations that require switch-to-switch transmissions. I have five uses where a UPB switch transmits to either another switch or a wired-in module. I've done this because I had several times where while I could add a box and get power to it, I couldn't get the wire to the attic, so I install a module in the attic and remotely control the light or fan. For example I have a kitchen island that has power, so I added a UPB switch, but I have no way in the world to get wires from there through the floor, up the wall to the ceiling where I installed lights over the island.

Overall, the repeater has helped a great deal even if it doesn't support two-way GEN1 traffic. I think that PCS could add that feature, but the ongoing feud between SA and PCS means it won't happen, so instead of the Hatfields and the McCoys, we have the GEN1'ers and the GEN2'ers with customers in the middle needing to watch out for gun fire.

 

[pete_c]

I have a mixture of HAI, PCS and SA switches. I'm stuck right now (at a stop) on the second floor in my migration still having to do the chandelier 3 way with the primary being a PCS switch waiting to be installed. Its not too much bigger than the regular switches so it shouldn't be a big deal. I have also "introduced" SA UPB lamp modules / appliance modules into the mix where before my goals were just swapping out the light switches. I also have 3 PIM's on line with an HAI UPB PIM on the OPII, SA Serial UPB PIM on the HA box and a "floater" USB PIM which I typically use with the laptop where ever in the house. (each of these indicate decent signals and the floater works well where ever its plugged in).

Just checked my signals with Upstart and they are good. Same as before with one phase being much higher than the other. Decent signals on the "lower side" of 15-25. I did have opposite phase signal strength problems with the SA coupler and went to a PCS coupler. Big difference in opposite phase signal strength. I can see the electrical stepdown transformer from my home as it sits on the corner of my lot. There was a point in time in the last couple of months in which I did see noise on the line with Upstart. It was only for a couple of days and I could never find the source. My "guess" at the time was the neighbors pool pump. I've also since "rearranged" my panel some when installing the TVSS box and documenting all of the circuits. In doing this I've split up the circuits and phases a bit where as earlier the entire 2nd floor was on one phase and today it is mixed between both phases.

In the beginning of my migration over to UPB I did contact SA and they did respond. My issues were related to taking the USB PIM over the network via a Digi Anywhere. While the HA computer recognized it; it wouldn't talk to it. SA told me that some companies had created "specialized" USB drivers for situations like this.

I was an x-10 user to x-10/Insteon convert many years ago. I added a x10 booster (XTB) a few years back and never had issues with the x10 modules. I continued to talk to them mostly in x10 via the OPII panel and seldom used Insteon via the HA box.

 

[drozwood90]

I am not familiar with xAP, but in the early days of UPB, I remember Simply Automated trying a harness they made that could connect to two PIMs with one on each phase. I didn't test it myself, but the feedback was that it helped in some areas, but since it didn't repeat across phases, then switch to switch transmissions weren't improved. I use CQC now, so doubt that it would support it. The UPB plug-in isn't that robust as it is.

In my setup, I have a fair number of situations that require switch-to-switch transmissions. I have five uses where a UPB switch transmits to either another switch or a wired-in module. I've done this because I had several times where while I could add a box and get power to it, I couldn't get the wire to the attic, so I install a module in the attic and remotely control the light or fan. For example I have a kitchen island that has power, so I added a UPB switch, but I have no way in the world to get wires from there through the floor, up the wall to the ceiling where I installed lights over the island.

Overall, the repeater has helped a great deal even if it doesn't support two-way GEN1 traffic. I think that PCS could add that feature, but the ongoing feud between SA and PCS means it won't happen, so instead of the Hatfields and the McCoys, we have the GEN1'ers and the GEN2'ers with customers in the middle needing to watch out for gun fire.

Again, strictly speaking in Homeseer terms (as I know you have used it...and it's all I know), since there isn't too many that need to be repeated, I would just setup an event that stated Event to fire on "SW1 Link" set to any status. This would be received by PIM1, which in turn is processed by the first xAP UPB server. Then in the event, I would have it fire off an xAP event to PIM2 to just send the same Link. Kind of hooky, but at least it will get you through this (at least it's only 5 switches...which I'm assuming then is 1 3way and 1 pair?).

Again, I'm no xAP Expert...but my understanding of how xAP works, this is a perfectly acceptable use (having multiple PIMs). Heck, you could even have another PIM sitting on another PC somewhere, which just gets the xAP message. BUT, K.I.S.S., so setup two servers, one for each PIM on your main machine.

--Dan

 

[tenholde]

Just having a repeater doesn't mean your system is really even using the repeater, at least in the backward direction. Its very deceptive. If your signal is 5 or 6, and you say GEN1 switches work on both phases of UPStart, it tells me that UPStart, and likely your home automation is not making full use of the repeater. If it was, your signal would be much higher than 5 or 6 AND UPStart would not see GEN1 switches on the opposite phase. In UPStart, you need to add the repeater to your network, then you need to enable UPStart to actually use the repeater.

My repeater is enabled in UpStart. The reason that the strength measured on the opposite phase for GEN I with the repeater is that the return from the GEN I switch is only sent once (so repeater does not repeat it) and it passes through my phase coupler to UpStart. UpStart and the repeater are working fine with mixed GEN I and GEN II -- I understand that the responses FROM the GEN I switches will not be repeated on the other phase (because GEN I switches do not send multiple xmits) but they do receive repeated xmits from HomeSeer through thru the repeater.

Why do you think UpStart would not see GEN I switches on the other phase when the repeater is in use and UpStart knows about it? The GEN I switches still respond to UpStart, they are just not repeated through the repeater -- they are coupled (at low signal strength) across the phases.

tenholde