God Bless America
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SnyperBob
Active Member
Here in Chicago we sing "Take me out to the ball game!"
You don't even want to know what happens during the National Anthem at a Blackhawks game, lol
tmbrown97
Senior Member
IVB - Seriously, my rant was not directed at anyone - certainly not you... just some general beliefs. I'm just not that passionate about these topics... Some of you guys are getting quite heated - I'm just not the guy to get into those debates with - I don't have some passionate belief against most people or cultures; and while you guys are clinging to certain words, I assure you, if you knew me, you'd know I'm not the problem here.
That said, I guess the best way to explain that comment is this... If the local culture as in this case at a ball game is to sing god bless america and it's what the majority of the fans like, I don't want to take that away - even if I don't believe in God or in what they're doing. If you want to sit out, then you should have the right and have nobody bother you over it - as long as you don't take the moment away from them by being disruptive. That's no different than if I go to someone's house and they do a prayer before dinner (be it Hindu, Catholic, whatever - I don't care). While I may not actively participate, out of respect I'll bow my head and go along with it. I'd rather use a non-US based situation to compare to, but I can't think of any off-hand that I can speak accurately enough about.
I have no problem at all with people who choose to sit out things that they don't believe in... what I have a problem with is the one guy who sues the stadium to make them stop because it violates his beleifs. Don't people have better things to do? That's the part I have trouble with - is people who move into an existing culture and expect that culture to adapt to them or change just for them. If 10,000 people in a stadium want to sing God Bless America and 50 want to sit out, they should be able to without persecution - but they shouldn't stop the 10,000 from continuing their tradition either because for those patriotic dads taking their boy to the game, that's a proud moment. Hell - better yet, scratch God Bless America - how about the Macarena... I hate that song, but I'm sure enough fans would get up and dance... I'd be the guy taking that time to go grab a beer and smiling watching them have a good time doing something they enjoy.
That said, I guess the best way to explain that comment is this... If the local culture as in this case at a ball game is to sing god bless america and it's what the majority of the fans like, I don't want to take that away - even if I don't believe in God or in what they're doing. If you want to sit out, then you should have the right and have nobody bother you over it - as long as you don't take the moment away from them by being disruptive. That's no different than if I go to someone's house and they do a prayer before dinner (be it Hindu, Catholic, whatever - I don't care). While I may not actively participate, out of respect I'll bow my head and go along with it. I'd rather use a non-US based situation to compare to, but I can't think of any off-hand that I can speak accurately enough about.
I have no problem at all with people who choose to sit out things that they don't believe in... what I have a problem with is the one guy who sues the stadium to make them stop because it violates his beleifs. Don't people have better things to do? That's the part I have trouble with - is people who move into an existing culture and expect that culture to adapt to them or change just for them. If 10,000 people in a stadium want to sing God Bless America and 50 want to sit out, they should be able to without persecution - but they shouldn't stop the 10,000 from continuing their tradition either because for those patriotic dads taking their boy to the game, that's a proud moment. Hell - better yet, scratch God Bless America - how about the Macarena... I hate that song, but I'm sure enough fans would get up and dance... I'd be the guy taking that time to go grab a beer and smiling watching them have a good time doing something they enjoy.
Steve
Senior Member
I swore I wouldn't get sucked into this but I have to make a few comments. I think I understand what Todd is saying about immigrants and this country and if I do I mostly have to agree. Let it be known I have no problem with and in fact alot of respect for ALL PEOPLE, regardless of race, religions, belief sets, types of underwear they wear, etc. Some of my best friends are immigrants. They come to America for a variety of reasons and they all come knowing what a great country this is ant wanting to PARTICIPATE in it. They have jobs, families, etc and are happy to be here and live, work and play according to America's laws and customs. They have their ethnic churches, social gatherings, etc and that's all fantastic. In fact I attend several of them and enjoying learning about some of their culture as well without having to go to their native countries. But where I draw the line are those that have no respect for this country its values and traditions. Yes, I will stand up next to Todd and ask 'Why the heck did you even come to this country?" to people like the South Americans in Miami that petitioned to changed the OFFICIAL language to Spanish. I'm sorry, Miami is still part of America and while I welcome any of them, they should respect the country they want to live in. Want to speak Spanish in your home, open a cultural business and speak Spanish, that's fine, but don't insist that America change to be like the country you came from. If that's what you want, then go back to your homeland regardless of what it is. I also have no respect for people that come over mostly illegally, don't work, don't contribute at all to society and then pop out 6 kids and expect good ole America will pay all your bills and take care of your needs, sometime even better than some Americans have for themselves. Want to be a PRODUCTIVE member of our society and Welcome to America! I also know how painfully difficult it is for genuinely great people to gets Visas and Green cards. Some of my friends has long drawn out deportation hearings just trying to come here and be productive, while others just sneak in and mooch, mooch, mooch.
IVB
Senior Member
Todd B, what about banning Gay Marriage, how is that a "Live and Let Live" approach? Why was 50% of California's Proposition 8 funded by out-of-state Mormon churches? How is anybody else's marriage invalidated as a result of somebody in a different state getting married? Do you feel like less of a husband because gay people in MA can now get married? It fails on every count:
- Marriage is about children? No, that fails to the childless marriage counter point and permitting sterile or old people to get married.
- Bad fiscal policy? No, that fails on the account we can just change the tax law to match.
- Not a real marriage? No, that fails to all arguments on separation of church & state on defining a marriage.
But, it is against the religious beliefs, and so others cannot live and let live. Wake up, you may personally be in a live-and-let-live world, but most of America is NOT.
Steve, I guarantee you that for every instance of stupidity you state, I have 10 others that go the other way (religious intolerance BY Christians), half of which probably happened to me. So are we saying that two wrongs make a right?
There's at least 10X fewer lazy immigrants than there are lazy americans. Trust me, for 5 months now i've had 2 open spots, and even willing to pay a decent amount (starting at $70/hr). You would be floored at the attitude I get from "Palin Americans" versus the fresh-off-the-boat immigrants. With their primadonna mentality I can't believe some of them have ever held a job, much less the jobs they claim on their resume.
- Marriage is about children? No, that fails to the childless marriage counter point and permitting sterile or old people to get married.
- Bad fiscal policy? No, that fails on the account we can just change the tax law to match.
- Not a real marriage? No, that fails to all arguments on separation of church & state on defining a marriage.
But, it is against the religious beliefs, and so others cannot live and let live. Wake up, you may personally be in a live-and-let-live world, but most of America is NOT.
Steve, I guarantee you that for every instance of stupidity you state, I have 10 others that go the other way (religious intolerance BY Christians), half of which probably happened to me. So are we saying that two wrongs make a right?
There's at least 10X fewer lazy immigrants than there are lazy americans. Trust me, for 5 months now i've had 2 open spots, and even willing to pay a decent amount (starting at $70/hr). You would be floored at the attitude I get from "Palin Americans" versus the fresh-off-the-boat immigrants. With their primadonna mentality I can't believe some of them have ever held a job, much less the jobs they claim on their resume.
mustangcoupe
Senior Member
Ok, what started out as a well rounded discussion, I believe this thread has taken a turn. I believe we all have our opinions here, and it is our RIGHT to have an opinion of our own, and state that opinion. BUT I think this thread is not going to end and the tone has taken a slight heated turn now, and before it gets totally out of hand I think we should be civil about it and just remember who we are and why we are here. This is CocoonTech, a place for friends and HA/HT enthusiasts. I personally believe this is the number one place on the net for HA advice PERIOD.
Lets let this thread end and get buried under the rest of the daily chatter, I for one don't want to have guests see this as a reason not to join and become part of our great community.
Lets let this thread end and get buried under the rest of the daily chatter, I for one don't want to have guests see this as a reason not to join and become part of our great community.
IVB
Senior Member
I'm fine with calling it a detente on this forum, but I would ask that each of you not avoid these difficult conversations in other venues. The confrontation-phobic urge that most humans have is exactly why we are not in a live-and-let-live society - every time the vocal ones within an oppressed group get too uppity, there is the overwhelming desire by 99% of the populace to shut down the conversation in the interest of 'keeping the peace'. And then nothing changes, and the oppressed remain oppressed.
Each of us have been a member of a minority group at some point in our ancestry. Every group, upon first arrival, was accused of destroying America. Could have been racial (Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Asian, Eastern), could have been religious (Mormons, eh, outta my realm but wasn't Catholicism looked down upon, now Islam). What if *your* ancestors stayed nice & quiet? Would you now be in a position to look down upon others, or would you still be the bottom rung of the ladder?
Each of us have been a member of a minority group at some point in our ancestry. Every group, upon first arrival, was accused of destroying America. Could have been racial (Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Asian, Eastern), could have been religious (Mormons, eh, outta my realm but wasn't Catholicism looked down upon, now Islam). What if *your* ancestors stayed nice & quiet? Would you now be in a position to look down upon others, or would you still be the bottom rung of the ladder?
Neurorad
Senior Member
I have to agree with Mustangcoupe.
I don't believe this isn't the forum to punch our fists to the sky, 'righting' social wrongs.
It's been an enlightening thread, learning about shared and unshared beliefs of other cocooners, but this really isn't useful.
In my opinion, nobody is going to 'cure' anyone of a lifetime of ignorance, in this forum (or probably any online forum). This isn't the place for it.
Everybody here is very intelligent, but emotions can't be stripped from discussions like this.
I don't believe this isn't the forum to punch our fists to the sky, 'righting' social wrongs.
It's been an enlightening thread, learning about shared and unshared beliefs of other cocooners, but this really isn't useful.
In my opinion, nobody is going to 'cure' anyone of a lifetime of ignorance, in this forum (or probably any online forum). This isn't the place for it.
Everybody here is very intelligent, but emotions can't be stripped from discussions like this.
mustangcoupe
Senior Member
Neurorad
Senior Member
I dunno about that. A lot of 'difficult conversations' are about 'I'm right and you're wrong', at the expense of understanding. So many online discussions involve promoting a personal agenda (as are all human interactions). It's not easy to explain, but I think a lot of it is 'ego building', rather than something productive.
A good example is the 'anti-smoking' agenda - people delight in telling other people they're wrong (no, I don't smoke cigarettes, but I enjoy an occasional cigar, on my deck). I feel sorry for smokers, myself.
My pointing this out is, in a way, is stroking MY ego. If I was a better person, I'd be meditating, and not typing.
It's takes a concerted effort to discuss without emotions, without self-promotion. It's just something to think about.
Thanks for reading.
just a quick update on the original topic (yes, there was an original topic here)... i visited kansas city this past weekend to see my rangers take 2 of 3 from the royals, and they played God Bless America on Sunday afternoon during the 7th inning stretch. not only did nobody yell at me for leaving my hat on, there were plenty of people around the stadium that did the same. when i commented on it, even my super-conservative dad said "why should they... it's not the national anthem".
gotta love the midwest.
gotta love the midwest.
