Help me understand 3-way switches

[Bzncrewjr]

All general home wiring (romex) have a white, black and bare wire, but that doesn't mean they are always attached to the neutral power feed from the breaker box.  The most common annoying case is that power is wired to the light fixture first and then only the hot (black) continues on to the light switch and back to the light on the white wire to form a loop.  The problem is that at the switch you only have one dead lead (white wire for return power/closed loop) and the hot black wire and no real neutral.  I believe electricians are supposed to black tape the wire wire to indicate it is technically a hot return and not neutral.  Without actual hot and neutral at the light switch, you won't have any power to operate a upb or zwave light switch.
 
What you hope would be done is power goes to the light switch first, and then up to the light switch ensure both hot, neutral and load wires are there at the switch box.  3-ways get more complicated but as long as power goes to the light switch first you're ok.
 
I lucked out and only had one switch that lacked a neutral (aka common) but thankfully it was in a multi gang box and the other switches there had a neutral I could use.
 
To understand what your requirements for UPB are, you could technically get away with using all master switches, you don't actually need slaves in 2,3,4-way lighting.  Slaves are simply cheaper.  That being said, there isn't a whole lot of value in spending the money needlessly either.  Slaves chain off the master in a multi-way lighting setup.  In a basic 3-way, you need one master, and one slave.  There can only be one master because a master switch is what actually turns on and off the light, the other switches just tell it to.  The wiring gets a bit complicated but that is where you would need a multi-meter and the instructions and a clear head. 
 
Good luck!
 
Steve

 
Thanks for the explanation Steve.   That makes things much clearer for me.  Essentially I need power at the switch for it to operate.
 
Electricians were wrapping up today when I went out there.   I'll go back out there Monday and have a more in depth conversation with them.
 
--Russ

 

[fcwilt]

Hi Russ,
 
If you search for something like "3 way switch diagram" or "4 way switch diagram" you can find any number of different ways of showing the wiring.
 
It really is fairly simple to understand once you find a clear diagram.
 
The "remote" switches that you read about take advantage of the existing wiring to allow controlling a single dimmer from multiple locations using a simple switch that can save you money.

 

[Sparkman1]

Here's a good site showing many possible ways of wiring 3/4 way circuit: http://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com/3-way-switch-wiring-diagram.html.  For new wiring, you should only follow the options that bring a neutral to the box.  As explained by others before, quite often the white wire is not a neutral in these scenarios.
 
Cheers
Al

 

[summertt]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Frunple]

How does the slave get power if you take out the 3-way.   I guess I need to understand a 3-way circuit better.
 
--Russ

The slave switches are wired just as any outlet would be. That's why you need the neutral every where. 

 

[pete_c]

In the midwest here have multiswitch configurations in the three hallways in the home. 
 
Every multiswitch box has a neutral, load, multiswitch (travellers) wires.
 
The GC also wired each overhead can in every room for separate fan and lighting to the wall switch. 
 
Then 1/2 of many outlets to another wall switch.
 
The kitchen has 2-3 multiswitches for every set of lights in the kitchen an dining nook (bigger than a nook).
 
IE: second floor hallway has a switch for the hallway ceiling lamps outside of each bedroom.
 
All of the electric is in conduit. 
 
I like the term multi switch over 3-4-5 way switches as it is much less confusing to understand.
 

 

 
I went a bit granular adding separating circuits a bit over the years.  Master bath room has 3 circuits today.  Bedrooms have 1-2 circuits.  Family room has separate breakers for outlets, multimedia and lighting...
 
I added a chandelier lift with separate power to the breaker for easy cleaning or replacement of the main hallway entrance chandelier.  I cannot get to it unless I use a ladder.  My sister's chandelier can be pulled over a bit to the stairs for cleaning (not replacement though).
 
Garage is on multiple circuits / breakers.  Learned much about the art of bending conduit over the last 30 plus years.
 
First neighbour in first purchased house was a master electrician; much older than me and showed me much about electricity as I knew nothing about.  First purchased home had mostly micky mouse DIY'd added electric and base was cloth at the time.  I replaced most if not all of it over about 1-2 years time (then sold house).
 
In second house built GC used romex; every box (outlets, switches and overhead cans) has 1 or 2 3 wire + ground wires.
 
The homes are wired legacy and I have added much virtual multi switch stuff as I prefer that over the AUX UPB switches.  That is me though.

 

[wkearney99]

Then 1/2 of many outlets to another wall switch.

 
Be aware that code, and manufacturers, take issue with using wall switches to control outlets, especially if a dimmer is involved.  Mainly to avoid the potential for electrical fire risks, both to the dimmer and whatever device might be attached.  Lutron makes a split outlet with a special smaller tang for one side of the plug (and a matching socket).  Yes, it seems like overkill.  I've never seen one in use.  
 
Just bear that in mind and try to avoid using switched outlets in situations where anything other than a lamp might get connected.
 
You're going to run into the next problem.... dimming and LEDs.  Oh, what a mess.  If you want to plan ahead, check out Lutron's LED testing pages:  
 
http://www.lutron.com/led
 
That and if you're not sure, call their 800 number and ask whether they've tested a particular LED.  Their policy regarding testing is they only publish when the vendor has been contacted and has agreed to being published.  They will, however, tell you over the phone about any others they've checked.  The rationale being why publish bad news and, no doubt, avoid wasting dollars fending off legal issues.  But if you call they'll tell if something wasn't suitable.

LED lighting is not the same as incandescent.  It's best to pick one or the other FIRST and then match them.  I'd start with the dimmers.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here had the 1/2 outlets to switches in a home in the 80's in the Midwest.  I also utilized the X10 automated outlets back then.  I did prefer the switch on the wall automating 1/2 of the outlet over the automated outlet (which was only an appliance outlet).  (for use with dimming lamps).
 
It was just the bedrooms at the time.  Personally here did change the bedrooms to having one switched / two switched outlets for fear of accidents with dimmer switches and or vacuum cleaners. 
 
I did same in current home in the Midwest except here there were more rooms with more switched outlets on the main floor and 2nd floor.  I do prefer the automated wall switch over the automated light / appliance module look.
 
I have added one or two circuits and some added new ceiling lighting with romex in the other house built in 2000 but it's been a real PITA as there are firebreaks in all of the walls.

 

[Bzncrewjr]

Garage is on multiple circuits / breakers.  Learned much about the art of bending conduit over the last 30 plus years.

 
I feel confident in our electrician.   The bigger garage has 12 outlets and he wired them staggered to 2 circuits.  I wouldn't have thought of that.
We have 2 x 200 amp panels and he is being mindful of loads that need dedicated circuits like the Low Voltage panel as well as planning for backup generator.  
Bringing donuts to the guys has gone a long way.   They seem to have our best interest and are doing a great job.  I'm afraid to see the bill.
 
Thanks to ya'll I've got a much better understanding of multi way circuits.    
I'm going to finish my LV wiring this weekend and meet with the electricians Monday and discuss neutral wires.  
 
--Russ

 

[Bzncrewjr]

Personally, I've long been a fan of Lutron lighting switches. Nice plastics that feel nice to use, lots of color choices, good wife-acceptance-factor and ultra reliable.  Not cheap, but worth the price.  There are sources out there for better pricing, don't go by just list prices.  They can be installed just like any other switches, there's nothing special about them from a wiring standpoint.  They also offer RF remotes that are the same size as a Decora-style switch.  Making it easy to get the same switch look/feel in other locations.

 
Does Lutron make a switch and/or dimmer that will work with an HAI panel?  A quick glance and they do make some nice switches.
 
--Russ

 

[ano]

Does Lutron make a switch and/or dimmer that will work with an HAI panel?  A quick glance and they do make some nice switches.
 
--Russ

Sure, Lutron RadioRA2 is supported.