Homeseer drops Insteon plugin development

[Rupp]

But then I'll have to buy an Ethernet expander for Elk...

But nevermind... I live in my apartment and I do have few Insteon devices...

M1 and Insteon integrates very well just fine without an ISY for me. So if I want to move to HomeSeer for home automation and have HomeSeer talk with Elk, I don't see why I need an ISY for home automation...

I might have to compare PowerHome to HomeSeer...

Let's not forget that the Insteon plugin is still available for free and is working very well for many users.

 

[upstatemike]

But then I'll have to buy an Ethernet expander for Elk...

But nevermind... I live in my apartment and I do have few Insteon devices...

M1 and Insteon integrates very well just fine without an ISY for me. So if I want to move to HomeSeer for home automation and have HomeSeer talk with Elk, I don't see why I need an ISY for home automation...

I might have to compare PowerHome to HomeSeer...

Then why do you even need an Insteon plugin? Can't Homeseer control your Insteon devices through the Elk plugin?

 

[GraysonPeddie]

Oh, yeah. I saw that about a year ago when I was demoing HomeSeer. When I turn on a light from HomeSeer, it took about a half a second to turn on a light. This is due to SDM3 and 2414U PLC. Due to SDM3, I wasn't very impressed with that, but I can't blame HomeSeer for that (neither can I with any home automation software using SDM3).

But with 2414S for Elk, activating a light turns on a light 50ms from the press of a button.

By the way, I don't have HomeSeer, yet.

 

[DavidL]

Oh, yeah. I saw that about a year ago when I was demoing HomeSeer. When I turn on a light from HomeSeer, it took about a half a second to turn on a light. This is due to SDM3 and 2414U PLC. Due to SDM3, I wasn't very impressed with that, but I can't blame HomeSeer for that (neither can I with any home automation software using SDM3).

But with 2414S for Elk, activating a light turns on a light 50ms from the press of a button.

By the way, I don't have HomeSeer, yet.

Grayson,
Not sure why that might have been (I kinda doubt it still has that kind of performance issue). With at least MainLobby, controlling an Insteon light is near instant from the touchscreen.

There is some delay if you manually dim the light from the Insteon switch, that about a second later, the MainLobby software recognizes that change. Might just be something we aren't optimizing, but going the other way there is very small delay.

I gotta believe Homeseer's doing same good performance now.

EDIT...ooops. you are talking about the PLC / SDM. I am talking about the PLM. I don't see why there is the need for the PLC when the PC is on 24x7 with much greater capability.

 

[Mvesprini]

I am a Homeseer user. I am in the middle of converting about 70 - X-10 Devices over to Insteon. So far I have replaced about 20 switches. It is pretty time consuming linking, setting ramp rates, and on levels from the swithches and Key pads. So, I am in search of a device / software that will make it easier to do this. The two options I have found is Insteon Explorer and SH's ISY99. I have the PLM already. Explorer is a Beta Program and I can't seem to find any documentation. Will the ISY-99 Allow me to link, crosslink, set ramp rates, on levels, create groups and scenes from a PC? If yes, can I then use Homeseer to take over from there, that is to say, use Homeseer as the master controller of all events in the House? I have many events tied to Alarm panel triggers and Homeseer does that nicely. I am concerned about what Upstatemike said about over 50 Devices and the system becoming unstable. Any fix here? Also, I have already started to Link and crosslink switches. In Topic "ISY99 How do I spiderlinks?" again, Upstatemike warns about clearing the existing links and reprogramming. If ISY99, PLM and Homeseer are the way to go for me, Would it be better to wait to get the ISY99, factory reset my installed devices and PLM, delete all Insteon devices in Homeseer and start fresh? Sound like a lot of work but better to do it with 20 devices thean 70.

Thanks

MV

[topic="11136"]ISY99 - How do I spider for links?[/topic]

 

[upstatemike]

I am a Homeseer user. I am in the middle of converting about 70 - X-10 Devices over to Insteon. So far I have replaced about 20 switches. It is pretty time consuming linking, setting ramp rates, and on levels from the swithches and Key pads. So, I am in search of a device / software that will make it easier to do this. The two options I have found is Insteon Explorer and SH's ISY99. I have the PLM already. Explorer is a Beta Program and I can't seem to find any documentation. Will the ISY-99 Allow me to link, crosslink, set ramp rates, on levels, create groups and scenes from a PC? If yes, can I then use Homeseer to take over from there, that is to say, use Homeseer as the master controller of all events in the House? I have many events tied to Alarm panel triggers and Homeseer does that nicely. I am concerned about what Upstatemike said about over 50 Devices and the system becoming unstable. Any fix here? Also, I have already started to Link and crosslink switches. In Topic "ISY99 How do I spiderlinks?" again, Upstatemike warns about clearing the existing links and reprogramming. If ISY99, PLM and Homeseer are the way to go for me, Would it be better to wait to get the ISY99, factory reset my installed devices and PLM, delete all Insteon devices in Homeseer and start fresh? Sound like a lot of work but better to do it with 20 devices thean 70.

Thanks

MV

[topic="11136"]ISY99 - How do I spider for links?[/topic]

MV-

I want to be sure the points you are referring to are kept in context so there is no confusion.

First- Insteon systems do not become unstable with more than fifty devices. My point in that post was that the nature of the Insteon protocol is such that controllers write links that modify a link table within each individual switch or module. When you have more than one controller writing links to a device there is a chance that one controller will overwrite something set by another controller. These kinds of problems are hard to troubleshoot and as the number of devices increases, so does the chance that a problem will occur if you have multiple controllers. A complex environment of more than 50 devices would certainly have problems in a multi-conroller environment but in reality you should not have more than one controller progamming and tracking all of your links in any size installation.

Conclusion: In any Insteon installation there should be one central controller that edits the links on devices, maintains the master table of all of the links (so they can be easily restored if a device is replaced), and should act as the interface to external equipment that wants to communicate with Insteon devices. (If other devices are allowed to communicate directly they would have to write links to the device link tables which is a problem as noted above).

Second: Yes the ISY will allow you to do all programming of your Insteon devices from a PC. It also has a network interface that allows it to be the primary controller for Homeseer, Elk M1, IES touch screens, etc. Yes you can certainly use Homeseer as your master controller and have it operate Insteon through the ISY plugin. You should NOT use the old Homeseer plugin for Insteon because it does not provide link management except for links specific to Homeseer. This produces the issue where links created by manual tap-tapping or by other link management software will overwrite each other in individual device link tables. Some folks with very small installations have gotten away with editing device tables by two different methods but it always goes wrong eventually and the results are ugly.

Third: Yes, you will want to factory reset your devices and start fresh. It is a pain but I didn't do it originally and paid a high cost in troubleshooting time and eventually had to do it anyway. (Fortunately crosslinking etc. is 1000 times faster using an ISY than it is doing it manually so don't worry too much about doing it all over). I don't want to tell you how to do your migration, but if it was me I would follow these steps:

1- Get an ISY99 and get it installed.
2- Remove any existing Insteon plugins from Homeseer and get Homeseer completely out of the picture temporarily.
3- Factory reset all of your Insteon devices to ensure there are no stray links or X-10 addresses in the link tables.
4- Add the devices to the ISY choosing the option to delete any existing links it finds in the devices (this ensures ISY database image of the device link table doesn't try to preserve any junk links)
5- Use the ISY to reprogram all your ramp rates, dim levels, links between controllers and switches, etc.
6- I would also use ISY to set up some basic programs such as timers and dusk to dawn stuff that doesn't really need to run from Homeseer.
7- Install the ISY plugin into Homeseer and let it create your devices from the ISY.
8- Use Homeseer to program motion based control of Insteon devices etc.

 

[Mvesprini]

Upstatemike,

I can't thank you enough for your quick and concise response. I am sure you have saved me hours if not days of frustration. I have been doing HA for a couple of years now and I know what you just did for me and hopefully, for many others who are migrating from X-10 to insteon.

Thanks again.

MV

 

[Mvesprini]

OK,

Today is the day. I got the ISY-99 and have installed it. Next step is to factory reset all my insteon devices. Does Everything meen EVERYTHING?? I tought we where just talking about switchlinks, appliance links, but then I realized that I have access points, filterlincs, boosterlincs and, the thing I do not want to reset and redo the most, the IR lincs with all my learned IR codes. What say you about these other devices? Do these need to be factory reset?

Thanks

MV

 

[upstatemike]

OK,

Today is the day. I got the ISY-99 and have installed it. Next step is to factory reset all my insteon devices. Does Everything meen EVERYTHING?? I tought we where just talking about switchlinks, appliance links, but then I realized that I have access points, filterlincs, boosterlincs and, the thing I do not want to reset and redo the most, the IR lincs with all my learned IR codes. What say you about these other devices? Do these need to be factory reset?

Thanks

MV

Filterlincs and Access Points do not maintain link tables so you do not need to reset anything.

I don't have an IRlinc so I'm not sure how best to migrate that. I would not do anything drastic until you pose the question on the ISY forum and get some input from folks who are using that device.

 

[Mvesprini]

Thanks again,


I guess I would still need to reset the PLM though. Yes? Upon Further review, I do not think it would be such a big deal to redo the IR links so I will reset those as well. I have had homeseer shutdown while I have been resetting the devices. I have not yet deleted the devices in homeseer yet. I plan to do that right before I download the ISY-99 plugin. Then, start linking devices to the ISY99.
MV

 

[RichTJ99]

Hi,

Can someone help me figure out this 'linking' issue that ISY99I handles? Im not sure I get what the ISY does & why I need it. I currently have the PCL (usb one), HS2, & a bunch of insteon. What does the ISY do better? Is it a faster reaction time when using a web browser?

My system seems to work well, but I would like to get a motion sensor (insteon), & some other items at some point.

Why do I need it? Whats the IR portion, or the pro portion?

I really just want support for some newer devices & I am not sure i get the linking that ISY does better or faster?

Is there some basic reading I can do as clearly, I dont get it.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[upstatemike]

Hi,

Can someone help me figure out this 'linking' issue that ISY99I handles? Im not sure I get what the ISY does & why I need it. I currently have the PCL (usb one), HS2, & a bunch of insteon. What does the ISY do better? Is it a faster reaction time when using a web browser?

My system seems to work well, but I would like to get a motion sensor (insteon), & some other items at some point.

Why do I need it? Whats the IR portion, or the pro portion?

I really just want support for some newer devices & I am not sure i get the linking that ISY does better or faster?

Is there some basic reading I can do as clearly, I dont get it.

Thanks,
Rich

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the linking issue has to do with the fact that Insteon devices talk to each other by establishing links in a link table which is maintained in each Insteon device. This is different from other protocols that use a list of pre-defined addreses and just assign them to modules to make them work together. When you use a central controller to write links to devices, the controller (ISY-99, PowerHome, Homeseer, etc) maintains a database to keep tack of what it wrote into each devices' link table. This allows the controller to easily rebuild a corrupted link table, easily replace a bad device by writing the same link table to a new device, etc. Controllers also create a link between themselves and each Insteon device so they can track the current state of the device.

The problem comes when you write to the link table on a device by some method other than the central controller because this will create links that the controller does not know about or it might change links that the controller put in place. Once you start using a central controller to manage your Insteon environment you should never change the links in a device using the manual tap-tap method or a different controller because your original central controller will have no way of knowing about the changes.

The solution is to designate one platform as the only method for programming links in your environment so you have a single authorative point of control. The most common choices are HouseLinc, PowerHome, or the ISY-99. The original Homeseer Insteon plugin does not qualify because it can only manage the links between the Homeseer PLC/PLM and the devices... not the links between devices.

Once you have a master controller in place, the way to incorporate other controllers is to have them communicate with the master controller. The master controller always knows the status of all devices and can relay this to other sytems such as a Elk panel, a PC running Homeseer, an IES touch screen, etc. etc. If you were to link these sytems directly to your Insteon devices without going through a master controller then the link tables in your devices would be in an unknown state (each system editing it without knowing about the other systems that are also editing it). This would create an environment that is impossible to troubleshoot or maintain.

 

[RichTJ99]

Mike,

Thanks for the answer, I am trying to figure if my situation has anything that isnt in HS2 already in terms of links. Since all my insteon devices are in HS2 (at this point its only lighting), I am not sure how else the links would work. If i have a DS10A send a signal through hs2 to turn on a light, wont HS2 have taht status?

Maybe I am not advanced enough to know what I am missing? All i think I want is to add a thermostat & a few Insteon motion detectors. Im just not seeing any benefit for someone like me that just has a PLC & HS2 (well and a W800).

Thanks,
Rich

Hi,

Can someone help me figure out this 'linking' issue that ISY99I handles? Im not sure I get what the ISY does & why I need it. I currently have the PCL (usb one), HS2, & a bunch of insteon. What does the ISY do better? Is it a faster reaction time when using a web browser?

My system seems to work well, but I would like to get a motion sensor (insteon), & some other items at some point.

Why do I need it? Whats the IR portion, or the pro portion?

I really just want support for some newer devices & I am not sure i get the linking that ISY does better or faster?

Is there some basic reading I can do as clearly, I dont get it.

Thanks,
Rich

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the linking issue has to do with the fact that Insteon devices talk to each other by establishing links in a link table which is maintained in each Insteon device. This is different from other protocols that use a list of pre-defined addreses and just assign them to modules to make them work together. When you use a central controller to write links to devices, the controller (ISY-99, PowerHome, Homeseer, etc) maintains a database to keep tack of what it wrote into each devices' link table. This allows the controller to easily rebuild a corrupted link table, easily replace a bad device by writing the same link table to a new device, etc. Controllers also create a link between themselves and each Insteon device so they can track the current state of the device.

The problem comes when you write to the link table on a device by some method other than the central controller because this will create links that the controller does not know about or it might change links that the controller put in place. Once you start using a central controller to manage your Insteon environment you should never change the links in a device using the manual tap-tap method or a different controller because your original central controller will have no way of knowing about the changes.

The solution is to designate one platform as the only method for programming links in your environment so you have a single authorative point of control. The most common choices are HouseLinc, PowerHome, or the ISY-99. The original Homeseer Insteon plugin does not qualify because it can only manage the links between the Homeseer PLC/PLM and the devices... not the links between devices.

Once you have a master controller in place, the way to incorporate other controllers is to have them communicate with the master controller. The master controller always knows the status of all devices and can relay this to other sytems such as a Elk panel, a PC running Homeseer, an IES touch screen, etc. etc. If you were to link these sytems directly to your Insteon devices without going through a master controller then the link tables in your devices would be in an unknown state (each system editing it without knowing about the other systems that are also editing it). This would create an environment that is impossible to troubleshoot or maintain.

 

[RichTJ99]

Mike,

I have been doing a ton of reading on the ISY. I spoke to Smarthome & they were nice enough to swap out my PLC for PLM, so I took the plunge & bought the ISY99I (not sure if I need the iR but I figured why not).

I am slowly getting the concept of groups (physical switches) vs Scenes (how a group of devices turns on & off - ramp levels, scene A turns device 1, 2 & 5 at 80%, etc).

I also saw your steps here which I will follow:

1- Get an ISY99 and get it installed.
2- Remove any existing Insteon plugins from Homeseer and get Homeseer completely out of the picture temporarily.
3- Factory reset all of your Insteon devices to ensure there are no stray links or X-10 addresses in the link tables.
4- Add the devices to the ISY choosing the option to delete any existing links it finds in the devices (this ensures ISY database image of the device link table doesn't try to preserve any junk links)
5- Use the ISY to reprogram all your ramp rates, dim levels, links between controllers and switches, etc.
6- I would also use ISY to set up some basic programs such as timers and dusk to dawn stuff that doesn't really need to run from Homeseer.
7- Install the ISY plugin into Homeseer and let it create your devices from the ISY.
8- Use Homeseer to program motion based control of Insteon devices etc.

I had a few questions-

1. Can the ISY itself do the factory reset (that would be much much easier).

2. How will Homeseer see the insteon devices? Will it be the same as now (see below)? Meaning from a user perspective, will it look/act the same?

3. Does Homeseer send signals to the ISY which sends signals to the PLM?

4. You mention using X10 Hawkeyes & (I think) DS10A's. How do you have the ISY recognize those motion events?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[upstatemike]

Mike,

I have been doing a ton of reading on the ISY. I spoke to Smarthome & they were nice enough to swap out my PLC for PLM, so I took the plunge & bought the ISY99I (not sure if I need the iR but I figured why not).

I am slowly getting the concept of groups (physical switches) vs Scenes (how a group of devices turns on & off - ramp levels, scene A turns device 1, 2 & 5 at 80%, etc).

I also saw your steps here which I will follow:

1- Get an ISY99 and get it installed.
2- Remove any existing Insteon plugins from Homeseer and get Homeseer completely out of the picture temporarily.
3- Factory reset all of your Insteon devices to ensure there are no stray links or X-10 addresses in the link tables.
4- Add the devices to the ISY choosing the option to delete any existing links it finds in the devices (this ensures ISY database image of the device link table doesn't try to preserve any junk links)
5- Use the ISY to reprogram all your ramp rates, dim levels, links between controllers and switches, etc.
6- I would also use ISY to set up some basic programs such as timers and dusk to dawn stuff that doesn't really need to run from Homeseer.
7- Install the ISY plugin into Homeseer and let it create your devices from the ISY.
8- Use Homeseer to program motion based control of Insteon devices etc.

I had a few questions-

1. Can the ISY itself do the factory reset (that would be much much easier).

it is an unfortunate characteristic of Insteon that different aspects of the protocol are implemented in different ways. The link table is accessible remotely and can be completely overwritten by the ISY for a fresh start. Local settings such as local ramp rate, X-10 address, etc. are not part of the link table and it requires a factory reset of the device to clear these.

2. How will Homeseer see the insteon devices? Will it be the same as now (see below)? Meaning from a user perspective, will it look/act the same?

Homeseer will see the ISY as a network connected device and will communicate with it over your LAN. The Insteon devices configured in the ISY get communicated to the Homeseer ISY plugin and corresponding Homeseer devices get created automatically

3. Does Homeseer send signals to the ISY which sends signals to the PLM?

Yes Homeseer talks to the ISY over the LAN so it is very very quick

4. You mention using X10 Hawkeyes & (I think) DS10A's. How do you have the ISY recognize those motion events?

I allow the Hawkeyes to transmit to a standard X-10 receiver which bradcasts an X-10 powerline signal to the PLM on the ISY. I have programs set in the ISY to trigger off the X-10 signaland send out the Insteon command to control the lights. ISY logic handles things like on-tim, reset the timer on new motion, daytime only operation, etc. I have an XTB repeater in my house for X-10 signal reliability and have had good luck with this arrangement. You could also put a W8000 on Homeseer and handle the motion logic there if you want to avoid the X-10 powerline part of the equation. (I was dead set against using X-10 pwerline for this until I tried it and it worked so well I have no excuse to complain) I'm not using any DS10s at this time.

Thanks,
Rich