Installing a Fire and Burglar (Elk/Omni) Alarm Panel that Meets NFPA 72 code

[ddennerline]

In order to swap out my ancient load center with a new SquareD QO 150A panel, I have to be code compliant for smoke detectors. I have to install/retrofit smoke detectors in my house. The inspector agreed to allow change out if the new panel was code compliant, and all bedrooms had smoke detectors. Needless to say, the change out saves a huge amount of money because it doesn’t require a service disconnect upgrade.

I have a few non-interconnected battery operated smoke/co detectors right now. They are quite a PITA because they require frequent battery change outs and there's no easy way to hush them short of getting a chair.

I have read/re-read all the smoke detector posts here. I even purchased a GE 449CTE. It’s very alarm panel friendly because it has both a trouble/power-supervision relay and alarm relay. I was considering using this part before the panel change out. I like the fact that it doesn’t have sounder that conflicts with the Elk speakers.

In talking with the electrician, he indicated that majority of AHJ in my area will not recognize a burglar alarm panel having smoke protection – even if the wiring and volume notification requirements are met.

In reading these articles, they seem to indicate its bad idea to hook a smoke detection system into alarm panel. At the very least, the smoke detection system should be totally separate. I sort of found this rather counter-intuitive seeing that burglar alarm has much stronger battery backup, automatic notification, FPL wiring, and UL 985 (http://engineers.ihs.com/document/abstract/TAPDFBAAAAAAAAAA) certification.
http://www.alarm.org/standrd/Nine%20IRC%20Report.pdf

I am now a little worried about getting caught up in smoke detector code compliance battle.

Is it possible to add smoke detectors to ElkM1G and be NFPA72 compliant?
The problems I see are:
1) the GE four wire detector (system detectors) doesn’t have an easy way to verify the “all go off.” requirement.
2) There’s no quick way to verify the 75db door/closed at pillow sound requirement short of buying/maintaining a sound level device
3) At least one keypad must be rewired to use FPL wire.
4) I have an 18ah battery, but I saw that alarm panel (now a smoke detection system) must have 24hr of backup. How do you prove to inspector that you meet this requirement. Is simply having a big battery sufficient?

Because I have attic access, I was planning on using GE449CTE upstairs bedrooms and a few wireless GE TX-6010 downstairs. I am not so sure this is best decision now. It may be better to just install traditional 110v detectors or use Kidde wireless detectors. Apparently, you cannot connect a Kidde relay into your alarm panel due to mixing high voltage and low voltage (http://forum.doityourself.com/electronic-alarms-home-security-devices/440300-add-house-smoke-detectors-home-alarm.html).

Has anybody passed an inspection with Elk/Omni used as a “fire detection system?”

 

[Neurorad]

I discussed some code questions at length with one of my AHJs, by phone. He was very eager to discuss, really helpful.

If you have attic access, why not use line voltage smokes? (And wire those smokes to the burglar alarm, for increased protection.)

I think you can get SPL meters from Radio Shack for $20, but not sure if the AHJ will approve your DIY testing.

I think you can calculate your backup time on your battery, and show the AHJ your numbers.

Are there any other 4-wire smokes, from other manufacturers, to consider?

 

[tmbrown97]

It's funny - this is the thread where Digger, DELInstallations and Panamanian should get going on the UL specifics! i'm actually pretty curious about this as well since I'd like to add smoke to my system one of these days. In my last home I just left the original smoke detectors in place and added a redundant system GE smoke for the alarm, but that was before I had kids to worry about and it was in a smaller home. Now I'd be interested in best possible practice.

 

[Del91574]

I wouldn't recommend tying the line voltage smokes to the security system in any stretch, too many problems and a big can of worms that is opened up. I wouldn't recommend tying 120V smokes to the system, even if through a relay or whatever, just a pile of problems.

If your AHJ won't accept your low voltage smokes, and you don't like the sounders in the smokes, then your hands are tied. The main thing a lot of inspectors have issue with is the tandem ring and volume levels, even if you install a notification appliance in or near each bedroom/sleeping area. A lot of the AHJ's are posing the question of what happens if the panel dies, etc. and is shut off, negating the fire alarm.

I'd sit with him and talk about installing (even though you don't like them) LV smokes with sounders and a reversing relay for tandem ring, then also discuss the sytem's backup battery and the inherent quality differences between the LV smokes and HV smokes. I've found myself installing System Sensor 2wtab's with the RSSmod2 and their maintenance module (converts to a 4 wire loop, also provides other benefits). They have an 85DB horn built in, and unless you're looking at a huge distance from where the db test is being done, I've never failed an inspection, not to mention if you put notification appliances in for a panel like the Elk.

Usually once you provide all the information that the units are "as good" or better than the HV units, installed in your case, as well as with the appropriate documentation, they might allow you to install the LV units.

 

[ddennerline]

If your AHJ won't accept your low voltage smokes, and you don't like the sounders in the smokes, then your hands are tied. The main thing a lot of inspectors have issue with is the tandem ring and volume levels, even if you install a notification appliance in or near each bedroom/sleeping area. A lot of the AHJ's are posing the question of what happens if the panel dies, etc. and is shut off, negating the fire alarm.

Thanks for detailed response.

Perhaps, I probably should start a dialog with inspector beforehand and find out how a LV fire alarm signaling system must be installed. From what you are saying, common practice is to ensure that tandem ring, notification devices, and battery backup are operating correctly. In addition, the panel must be UL listed for fire alarm/signaling. I believe Elk meets this requirement.

Do you know of any inspectors that verify that keypad wiring was converted to FPL (red).

The problem with high voltage smokes is that I would have to tear up big portions of my house, in particular downstairs ceiling in order to meet tandem ring requirement. The electrician quote me $200/smoke detector and that does not include repairing the drywall.

I was concerned that no AHJ would *not* allow a LV smoke install due to language in NFPA.

I did find a discussion here and it seems there is conflicting information in NFPA that allows different interpretation.
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/security-alarms/7211/Hook-in-AC-Fire-Alarms-to-Security-System
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.home.automation/2006-08/msg00463.html

 

[Digger]

I wouldn't recommend tying the line voltage smokes to the security system in any stretch, too many problems and a big can of worms that is opened up. I wouldn't recommend tying 120V smokes to the system, even if through a relay or whatever, just a pile of problems.

If your AHJ won't accept your low voltage smokes, and you don't like the sounders in the smokes, then your hands are tied. The main thing a lot of inspectors have issue with is the tandem ring and volume levels, even if you install a notification appliance in or near each bedroom/sleeping area. A lot of the AHJ's are posing the question of what happens if the panel dies, etc. and is shut off, negating the fire alarm.

I'd sit with him and talk about installing (even though you don't like them) LV smokes with sounders and a reversing relay for tandem ring, then also discuss the sytem's backup battery and the inherent quality differences between the LV smokes and HV smokes. I've found myself installing System Sensor 2wtab's with the RSSmod2 and their maintenance module (converts to a 4 wire loop, also provides other benefits). They have an 85DB horn built in, and unless you're looking at a huge distance from where the db test is being done, I've never failed an inspection, not to mention if you put notification appliances in for a panel like the Elk.

Usually once you provide all the information that the units are "as good" or better than the HV units, installed in your case, as well as with the appropriate documentation, they might allow you to install the LV units.

Ok can you define pile of problems? Many AHJ's will insist on 120V smokes on a dedicated circuit that sound in synch on a renovation or dormer etc. (they base this on the International Residency Code as well as NFPA) To have them trip your alarm panel so when you are not home you still know that there is a fire and the central station calls the Fire Department is an added bonus not required by code necessarily. As long as the relay and wiring are installed to code (seperation of circuits, [proper wire and supervised etc) I have not heard of a AHJ having an issue (I am sure somewhere one has).

I agree to meet with an AHJ before finalizing the plans and ask questions and take notes including the name of the AHJ. If possible sketch everything out before the meeting and go over it with the AHJ. If they permit the LV detectors all the better.

 

[ddennerline]

I agree to meet with an AHJ before finalizing the plans and ask questions and take notes including the name of the AHJ. If possible sketch everything out before the meeting and go over it with the AHJ. If they permit the LV detectors all the better.

Thanks for advise. I should sketch out a diagram that explains everything before meeting with AHJ. The link above to www.alarm.org points out some of the conflicting UL and NFPA language. Basically, if the AHJ agrees that drawing meets code, then you are good to go. If not, then it’s a potential uphill battle to convince inspector.

• Alarm panel is UL listed
• Smoke detectors are supervised both power and EOL
• Smoke detectors are UL listed
• Firewire, FPL , is used to wire all smoke detectors
• Fire notification device is loud enough to meet 75db code requirement at each/every bedroom
• Smoke detector installed within 3ft. of bedroom door (preferably on ceiling)
• Smoke detector install at every bedroom
• Smoke detector installed near bottom of stairs
• Smoke detector install at top of stair hallway
• Battery backup is 24hrs

Is there critical missing?

 

[Digger]

Thanks for detailed response.

Perhaps, I probably should start a dialog with inspector beforehand and find out how a LV fire alarm signaling system must be installed. From what you are saying, common practice is to ensure that tandem ring, notification devices, and battery backup are operating correctly. In addition, the panel must be UL listed for fire alarm/signaling. I believe Elk meets this requirement.

Do you know of any inspectors that verify that keypad wiring was converted to FPL (red).

The problem with high voltage smokes is that I would have to tear up big portions of my house, in particular downstairs ceiling in order to meet tandem ring requirement. The electrician quote me $200/smoke detector and that does not include repairing the drywall.

I was concerned that no AHJ would *not* allow a LV smoke install due to language in NFPA.

I did find a discussion here and it seems there is conflicting information in NFPA that allows different interpretation.
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/security-alarms/7211/Hook-in-AC-Fire-Alarms-to-Security-System
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.home.automation/2006-08/msg00463.html

I have heard installers who have had to use fire wire for the keypads and zone expanders and others where the AHJ did not care in Residential installs (Commercial you have to). If its a new install it does not cost that much more. If this is an existing system ask the AHJ what they want before pulling new wire.

Some AHJ's will want you to prove you have enough battery backup for 24 hours and 4 minutes of alarm and others wont even look. With the ELK you can measure your standby current through the keypad making it easier. You will probably need a second battery.

The ELK-M1G is UL Listed to UL985 the Residential Fire Alarm standard (as well as UL1023 Residential Burg etc.).

Some localities will also want CO Detectors but I would not ask. Let the AHJ tell you if they want it. You can always add later after the AHJ is gone.

My personal advice is to try and keep it simple and pass your inspection and then add things you may want later.

Good Luck

 

[Digger]

Thanks for advise. I should sketch out a diagram that explains everything before meeting with AHJ. The link above to www.alarm.org points out some of the conflicting UL and NFPA language. Basically, if the AHJ agrees that drawing meets code, then you are good to go. If not, then it’s a potential uphill battle to convince inspector.

• Alarm panel is UL listed
• Smoke detectors are supervised both power and EOL
• Smoke detectors are UL listed
• Firewire, FPL , is used to wire all smoke detectors
• Fire notification device is loud enough to meet 75db code requirement at each/every bedroom
• Smoke detector installed within 3ft. of bedroom door (preferably on ceiling)
• Smoke detector install at every bedroom
• Smoke detector installed near bottom of stairs
• Smoke detector install at top of stair hallway
• Battery backup is 24hrs

Is there critical missing?

NFPA Residential requirement is 85 db. 75 db is NFPA Commercial Requirement. Not that you will be measuring it yourself.

If you use 2 wire detectors make sure that they are UL Listed as compatible with the panel you use (check the latest version of the installation instructions).

Keep smoke detectors at least 3 feet from the bathroom doorway as required by code to minimize false alarms (from humidity etc). I dont remember the details but the code has requirements to keep detectors out of the path of air movement from heat/ac vents and ceiling fans.

 

[Del91574]

I have heard installers who have had to use fire wire for the keypads and zone expanders and others where the AHJ did not care in Residential installs (Commercial you have to). If its a new install it does not cost that much more. If this is an existing system ask the AHJ what they want before pulling new wire.

Some AHJ's will want you to prove you have enough battery backup for 24 hours and 4 minutes of alarm and others wont even look. With the ELK you can measure your standby current through the keypad making it easier. You will probably need a second battery.

The ELK-M1G is UL Listed to UL985 the Residential Fire Alarm standard (as well as UL1023 Residential Burg etc.).

Some localities will also want CO Detectors but I would not ask. Let the AHJ tell you if they want it. You can always add later after the AHJ is gone.

My personal advice is to try and keep it simple and pass your inspection and then add things you may want later.

Good Luck

We're required to have all our keypads and notification appliances installed using FPL or listed substitute. The same municipalities I listed in another thread are starting to require a hardwired (not plug in style) transformer to be installed for panel power in addition to the panel's own breaker/circuits, so it's not an unheard of thing, as my trade contacts in NC are stating the same things are being thrown at them state wide.

CO detectors are being cited heavily now, so it might be worthwhile to ask while the work/upgrade is going on rather than be surprised on his inspection/final, as it IMHO is showing due dilligence on your part in trying to meet code for your application, and the majority of the states (mine included) are only requiring them near sleeping areas at the present, but worst case, you're looking at what, 3 in most typical houses?

As stated, I'd build your case, with your system providing tandem ring and everything that the 120V's are doing, and then point out where you are intending to exceed the normal requirements, such as battery backup, installing audible speakers adjacent to the BR's, blah blah. Usually, unless they've taken a hard stance, when you provide the information and intend on meeting and/or exceeding the norm, especially in the realm of safety, they tend to start to shake their heads in the right direction.

I wouldn't point out the conflicts between UL and NFPA, as the majority of the times, they're going to be inspecting off NFPA 70, 72, and the IBC, BOCA or similar rather than UL, but the UL listing point is you are intending to use the listed devices in the manner they were intended to be used.

As a pro, we've had installs where there are 4 different standards being called into play that contradict each other, such as the placement of pullstations and strobes, so code conflicts aren't unheard of by a long shot.

 

[Digger]

We're required to have all our keypads and notification appliances installed using FPL or listed substitute. The same municipalities I listed in another thread are starting to require a hardwired (not plug in style) transformer to be installed for panel power in addition to the panel's own breaker/circuits, so it's not an unheard of thing, as my trade contacts in NC are stating the same things are being thrown at them state wide.

CO detectors are being cited heavily now, so it might be worthwhile to ask while the work/upgrade is going on rather than be surprised on his inspection/final, as it IMHO is showing due dilligence on your part in trying to meet code for your application, and the majority of the states (mine included) are only requiring them near sleeping areas at the present, but worst case, you're looking at what, 3 in most typical houses?

As stated, I'd build your case, with your system providing tandem ring and everything that the 120V's are doing, and then point out where you are intending to exceed the normal requirements, such as battery backup, installing audible speakers adjacent to the BR's, blah blah. Usually, unless they've taken a hard stance, when you provide the information and intend on meeting and/or exceeding the norm, especially in the realm of safety, they tend to start to shake their heads in the right direction.

I wouldn't point out the conflicts between UL and NFPA, as the majority of the times, they're going to be inspecting off NFPA 70, 72, and the IBC, BOCA or similar rather than UL, but the UL listing point is you are intending to use the listed devices in the manner they were intended to be used.

As a pro, we've had installs where there are 4 different standards being called into play that contradict each other, such as the placement of pullstations and strobes, so code conflicts aren't unheard of by a long shot.

Please clarify the localities you are talking about as previously you stated Fairfield County and I asked if CT and you did not answer and now it looks like you are talking about NC. I spent over 1/2 an hour on the phone yesterday with UL discussing Fairfield County CT and could not find any specific local requirements for additional UL Listings and I might have been wasting my time because you did not answer. So exactly where is it that you are not permitted to install HAI systems because of supposed UL Listing problems?

NFPA does not require a Fire Alarm to be hardwired into the branch circuit for Residential, however it has been a requirement for as long as I can remember for Commercial systems. If your area is only now starting to require Commercial Systems be hardwired to a branch circuit for commercial systems they are about a decade behind the code or more. If they are requiring it for Residential how are you using the ELK?

Again please define "pile of problems"? You state these issues so vaguely and never provide anything to back them up. I do NOT want to start a pissing match but are these just your opinions or actual cases where you have problems that you can tell us about?

 

[Del91574]

Please clarify the localities you are talking about as previously you stated Fairfield County and I asked if CT and you did not answer and now it looks like you are talking about NC. I spent over 1/2 an hour on the phone yesterday with UL discussing Fairfield County CT and could not find any specific local requirements for additional UL Listings and I might have been wasting my time because you did not answer. So exactly where is it that you are not permitted to install HAI systems because of supposed UL Listing problems?

NFPA does not require a Fire Alarm to be hardwired into the branch circuit for Residential, however it has been a requirement for as long as I can remember for Commercial systems. If your area is only now starting to require Commercial Systems be hardwired to a branch circuit for commercial systems they are about a decade behind the code or more. If they are requiring it for Residential how are you using the ELK?

Again please define "pile of problems"? You state these issues so vaguely and never provide anything to back them up. I do NOT want to start a pissing match but are these just your opinions or actual cases where you have problems that you can tell us about?

I was originally talking about CT. The municipalities are Greenwich and their districts, Stamford, New Cannan, Weston, Wilton, and Darien not accepting the HAI in conjunction with the engineered systems drawings that were submitted to them for pre-installation approval. I do not have my files handy with the exact notes for what the findings are/were, because these were specific to these jobs and the municipalities.

The AHJ's in Stamford and Greenwich are starting to specify that plug in transformers will no longer be acceptable for any install that contains fire alarm or CO in a residence. I have had to contact Elk's engineers with these requirements and they were able to provide information and documentation for an approved substitute for these municipalities to facilitate the installs. I referred to another integrator in NC that is on the state board that was telling me that their legislature is moving towards completely requiring hardwired system transformers on all installs.

I didn't start citing true specifics, because I doubt the majority of people that view and post here would deal with these muncipalities and specifics, but I was informing them as a guide for them to ask their AHJ's prior to them getting their panels and installs started, because as I have found in my cases, the devil is in the details, which was what they were citing on the engineered system documentation that was provided to them.

 

[Neurorad]

Huzzah! Wilton!

 

[Digger]

I was originally talking about CT. The municipalities are Greenwich and their districts, Stamford, New Cannan, Weston, Wilton, and Darien not accepting the HAI in conjunction with the engineered systems drawings that were submitted to them for pre-installation approval. I do not have my files handy with the exact notes for what the findings are/were, because these were specific to these jobs and the municipalities.

The AHJ's in Stamford and Greenwich are starting to specify that plug in transformers will no longer be acceptable for any install that contains fire alarm or CO in a residence. I have had to contact Elk's engineers with these requirements and they were able to provide information and documentation for an approved substitute for these municipalities to facilitate the installs. I referred to another integrator in NC that is on the state board that was telling me that their legislature is moving towards completely requiring hardwired system transformers on all installs.

I didn't start citing true specifics, because I doubt the majority of people that view and post here would deal with these muncipalities and specifics, but I was informing them as a guide for them to ask their AHJ's prior to them getting their panels and installs started, because as I have found in my cases, the devil is in the details, which was what they were citing on the engineered system documentation that was provided to them.

So the reason they were not accepted may have had nothing to do with UL Listings then. That I can believe. To say that it was a UL issue is misleading and may give unecessary doubt to people looking to buy that system in question.

 

[Del91574]

The did not accept the panel(s) based on the UL listing the HAI carried vs. the specific listings cited on Elk's engineering documentation. Remember, these are the same sorts of people that want an individual sound per type of alarm on these panels, including SILENT on burg, with the AHJ stating that "none" was considered a sound to him, and battling the speech annunciation, temporal codes and the whole deal.

Keep in mind, I'm working with the big boys on these installs and integrating these panels with AMX and Crestron via the serials and using their interfaces combined with the Elk's (or HAI's) and massive prints in hand prior and during installation of these panels/rough ins.