Is hardwired lighting control still the way to go?

[tmbrown97]

I'm sure I mentioned this - but using UPB I have accomplished a few tricks...  
 
One example - my guest bathroom has 3 basic loads - the combo fan/light, and the vanity light.  California has screwy regulations for switches so the most accessible switch has to be the one that consumes the least energy (in this example, the light in the fan/light combo unit which used to be CFL) - so as you walk in the bathroom, the switch bank there was for the light and the fan.  If you walked around the vanity to the switch bank on the other side, you could get to the other side of a 3-way switch for the fan's light, then the Vanity switch.  I left the wiring alone, but put in a SA 1140, a USR-40a (remote) and two 240 switches.  The end result is that on both sides of the vanity, I have a full-height switch that controls the vanity light including on/off and dimming, and along side that on both sides I have a horizontal split switch where the top controls the fan's light, and the bottom controls the fan.  Basically what the switches are actually wired to has nothing to do with what they control - but I get the effect I want.
 
I also have hidden functionality - like as I walk out of my office, double-tapping "off" on any of the switches (bathroom or bedroom) kills every light in the room.  Similarly, the upstairs hall switch looks the same as any other, but a double-tap kills the whole downstairs.  That alone justified the whole lighting automation project.
 
On new construction I would just ensure that there's a neutral in every box and they use the deeper boxes for more working room.

 

[picta]

Wow, thank you all for so many replies, I appreciate all the feedback.
 
Regarding my plans, a DIY-friendly system is a must as I can't imagine being in a position where I have to pay someone every time I want to change my configuration Reliability is at the very top of the list because if my lights work < 100% of the time, my wife will beat me with various objects around the house I'm a bit worried about the non-hard-wired solutions in that regard, and the feedback seems to be mixed on that as well
 
Regarding the size of the project, we have a ~2900 sqft house.  By my last count, there will be about 50-60 loads max, and about 30-35 of them need to be centrally controlled. I don't think there's a point in hooking up a closet light with an occupancy switch to the lighting control, seems like a waste
 
I wish that centralite panels were a bit more dense as it may be hard to find enough wall space to dedicate to the panels. For those with centralite, how do you handle interfacing to a phone or tablet? Centralite -> HAI -> ???
 
Anyone out there with Loxone experience that can comment on their reliability?
 
Thanks again all for all your prompt responses

If all you are looking for is to automate < 50 loads, then UPB may be the best way to go. You'll need a coupler/repeater and a few noise filters, also consider a whole house surge protector. We had UPB in the old house, it worked great except for a few occasions when a faulty device was plugged in, that would make all light go crazy. Also, when the neighbor installed a backup generator, it disabled our system when he was testing it. You just never know when such low probability events will come and get you. UPB was a great starter HA technology, but we had a chance to do a gutted remodel on the new house and wanted a full house automation, which means a lot more devices that need to be reliably integrated. If I had to do it all over again, I would still go the hard-wired rout. But I would not recommend it for a very small install.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah back in the late 1970's the only automation that existed was either hard wired (LV = low voltage control + HV = 120VAC switch) and X-10.  I used it in a home back then that I lived in only about 2/3's of a year and it did give the home that lived in look (security).
 
X-10 was a simple one way on the powerline communications topology.  It does / did have issues relating to noise and signal strength and X10 signal sinks.  
 
Over the years it was been tweaked with a variety of solutions that made it better but not perfect. 
 
I do like the addressing schema of a house code which was just two dials on the switch.  Today I set up all my holiday lighting to one house code and can one command to turn on all of the holiday lighting on at once.
 
Insteon - came along and it was a means / mechanism of using X10 and the new Insteon automation protocol.  It was a perfect migration path.  The switches chatted X10 and Insteon.  The powerline signal issues with X10 were solved by wirelessly bridging the electrical phases of a home using tiny little wireless access bridges.
 
Then....after Insteon we saw an automation migration push to either powerline or pure wireless protocals.
 
Note through out all of this the high end automation (and commercial) stuff stayed with the sure bet of LV control of HV switches and the want of 100% automation of lighting.
 
Powerline automation was reinvented to alleviate most if not all of the issues relating to X10. 
 
Wireless / Powerline hybrid automation (2nd generation) has also been reinvented to alleviate early on issues along with pure wireless. 
 
Note in an effort to sway the masses of automation folks (well or newbees) all of the automation protocal companies do state that their way is the only way or best way to automate in an attempt to create a standard which everybody uses.
 
I state I am sitting on the fence and still playing. 
 
Well that is a contradiction of sorts as I have settled on UPB for in wall light automated switch use (and some wireless ) and everything else for play at this time.  (automation hobby pieces of me)
 
I do like that miniaturization of that all wireless automation protocal hub thing as it does let the use choose whatever suits their fancy or my old legacy Leviton HAI Omnipro II panel which did bridge security and automation to firmware many many years ago. 
 
IE: a light switch (no matter if its X10, UPB, HLC, Zigbee or Z-Wave) to the HAI OPII / Elk M1 combination security / automation panel is just considered a Unit (light switch).  It is easier to play with software automation (chose your favorite OS) and just add as many or whatever protocol controllers you want....test the waters and see what you like or feel most comfortable with. 
 
After all its your home and your money and your automation.
 
The easy peasy pieces are relating to your knowledge base and grasp and use of the technology however it is presented.

 

[Dean Roddey]

It's also always important to remember it's not an all or nothing thing. You can have hardwired and non-hardwired in tandem. Either the lighting system hardware itself will support it directly, or the automation system can talk to two different hardware subsystems. You can put the less important stuff on a wireless setup and leave the core stuff hardwired.

 

[LarrylLix]

As per Dean above I would agree. Lighting is probably not important enough to hardwire and will probably be in a state of flux as new things arrive. Coloured bulbs are on the scene now and I am sure it is not done developing. If an LED bulb is left on all day once per year, so what? I am sure the 1/30 cent worth of power won't break anybody and won't buy you more than 1/4 inch of hardwire cable.
 
Some appliances may need the security of hardwiring. Security system motion detectors should be hardwired to prevent false triggering, costly and disturbing responses, and nuisance battery changes.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I personally wasn't arguing that lighting is not important enough. I'd do it if I could afford it, just to not have to worry about. If I couldn't, I'd stick with something pro level like RA2 or Centralite or something like that. I think that Centralite is one of those that allows for hybrid installations, right?

 

[pete_c]

The OP was:
 

I'm currently looking into Loxone, but the simplicity of Centralite Elegance XL is also attractive. Any feedback on either systems?
 
More generally though, is a centralized hardwired lighting panel still the way to go if I'm wiring things from scratch? My main worry is longevity of the companies providing this stuff, especially Loxone. They seem pretty new to the game.

 
The posts here stimulated some good discussions relating to methodologies of automating lighting and the best companies to deal with.
 
The answers related to the sure bet of perfect 100% automating of lighting and the currently used LV, powerline, powerline hybrid and wireless technologies being utilized today. 
 
Yeah here lighting is and has been the base of my automation from the get go in the late 1970s with X10. 
 
I didn't play with automating other stuff until the 1990's as there was no real easy way to do this.
 
Its been mentioned a few times here that just light switch / lighting automation can be an expensive endeavor no matter what technologies you utilize today.

 

[NeverDie]

I still have legacy X10 and gave it a boost of sorts making it 100% by using Jeff Volp's reinvention of X10.

Somewhat ironic if X10 can be made 100% reliable.  Is the Jeff Volp booster still being sold?

 

[RAL]

Somewhat ironic if X10 can be made 100% reliable.  Is the Jeff Volp booster still being sold?

 
Yes, he has several X10 products, including signal analyzers, boosters, noise reducers, and power line interfaces.
 
His web site is here.

 

[zenix]

I personally wasn't arguing that lighting is not important enough. I'd do it if I could afford it, just to not have to worry about. If I couldn't, I'd stick with something pro level like RA2 or Centralite or something like that. I think that Centralite is one of those that allows for hybrid installations, right?

 
HomeWorks QS is hybrid. As for Centralite, looks like it is betting all-in on ZigBee.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Don't they have a higher end wired system, Elegance or something like that? Which you can combine with their Jetstream wireless stuff?

 

[picta]

Don't they have a higher end wired system, Elegance or something like that? Which you can combine with their Jetstream wireless stuff?

Yes, Elegance is hard-wired, Jetstream is zigbee, you can combine the two into one system

 

[felixrosbergen]

For a new home I had the ground floor pre-wired for OnQ ALC (basically running Cat5 to the switch locations).  It added cost to the electrician bill (not insignificantly, I think I recall $50 a run or so), the switches are expensive (upwards of $100) and connecting them up is a bit of work (terminating the wires, etc).
 
However once it's in it has been ROCK SOLID.  I have ELK M1 controlling the lights.
 
I did all this before I had kids when I still had time on my hands and have honestly not touched it at all in 5 years now.  Our outside lights turn themselves on and off according to the dusk/dawn timing, inside garage lights turn on for 5 minutes when you open the door, foyer light turn on in the evening.  When I turn the alarm on to night mode all the lights turn themselves off.
 
Recently I switched alarm monitoring companies and had the panel off for a day. My wife was complaining left and right about why did and that didn't work, why weren't the outside lights on.  We honestly did not know which of the lightswitches in the house controlled the outside light since we had not touched them in 5 years. 
 
Anyway, I did hardwired and happy with it, but not sure if I would do it again. At the time UPB, Zwave and the likes were just starting.  If I was doing it all over now I would probably to that route and save cost and more importantly time which is a premium at this stage in my life.
 
One thing to note is that for a few years we had lengthy power outages (hurricanes and other storms) where we ran the house on generator for up to a week or 10 days.  I have a couple of UPB switches as well and they went apeshit due to the dirty power.  The hardwired ALC worked as always.

 

[dima]

Thank you all for valuable feedback.

Quick update. I decided to go with Radio RA2. My electrician is familiar with it and his low voltage guy installs it. We're putting many of the switches into the utility room, so no wall clutter in the otherwise 4-6 gang locations, just keypads. I'm running both line voltage and low voltage to the keypad locations, so there'll be some options in the future if necessary. I'm leaving the kids rooms on conventional wiring. I can always drop in more radio ra2 switches in there. We'll see how it all goes

I still like the features of the loxone miniserver so I'm going to try to give it a go as just an automation controller.

I'll report back when things are running

Thanks again guys!

 

[NeverDie]

We're putting many of the switches into the utility room, so no wall clutter in the otherwise 4-6 gang locations, just keypads. 

 

Thanks for sharing that observation.  That's a nice advantage that rarely, if ever, gets mentioned.