New construction - 7000 Sq. Ft. House

[wkearney99]

It's not at all preferable to me.
 
I'd have to let Del answer for himself, but I think above he was referring to certain AHJs lack of POE understanding and possibly not allowing it for certain installations...

 
I don't see it as preferable either.  Especially not for residential.  Why?  Decor, that's why.  There's a staggering volume of choices when it comes to decorating your home and light fixtures are no exception.  Having just dropped around $3k for less than a dozen fixtures I know the adventures involved.  It's bad enough narrowing down LED, CFL, incandescent, on-device controls, corded or hardwired, it's a chore.  The idea of adding PoE to that mix is ridiculous, at best.  There's also the problem of voltage drop and carrying capacity.  The thin gauges typically used for PoE make it impractical for anything other than LED.  AC may have it's issues but DC isn't ideal for longer distances.
 
For commercial it's another matter.  There's already quite a lot being done with 0-10v setups, DMX, and any number of schemes for near-element transformers and wireless controls.  In those situations where you're talking about hundreds of the same fixtures, repeated endlessly across a sea of cubicles there's definitely something to be said for maximizing energy usage.  

 

[Del91574]

DEL
 
I was considering POE for cameras in my house. If not POE then how do you deal with power distribution to camera locations? Is it a transformer for each cam?
 
Mike.

Different animal.
 
I've had to argue with AHJ's in the state as to what is allowable and listed for usage as POE. The first and second gen cameras supported either a wall wart or POE, or necessitated both. The latest batch of devices, it's hard to find cameras that don't require POE now.....
 
My main experience has been AHJ's arguing and questioning the voltages and power being sent down the cables....with them arguing about the midspan injectors, asking about the wattage and voltages being sent down the cable since they were "no longer just data cables" and then asking about the overcurrent devices and what else is being installed to protect the cable, building, etc, as the data cables don't meet the wattage and voltage requirements when they did their calculations (I choked when they said that to me). Personally, I think it was a result of a code change discussion they attended, but they still argued and asked for the UL listings and certs for the devices and still argued they were not listed as an assembly or singly for the usage intended.....and these were state projects.
 
At that point, the hands and everything else got thrown up and a higher power made the calls to tell them to cut it out and they were basically clueless as to the discussion and devices being installed. The only valid point that came out of the discussion was that midspans won't be installed in ceilings or inaccessible locations. I doubt that most AHJ's that look at residential are even going to really notice what the cable is and where it's located and for what purpose.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Some form of LV DC residential power distribution is inevitable.  Many devices no longer require the voltages and power of line voltage AC.  More homes will have PV sources and battery storage (if folks like Tesla have any input....).  Since lighting is the most 'distributed' user of power in the house, it makes a lot of sense to address it.  Not sure how the dust will settle w.r.t. standards in the long run.  But some form of POE sounds logical as it provides both power and control.  Cisco now has a proprietary 60W UPOE 'protocol' and we have up to 36W standards.  That's enough for all LED lighting and most electronic devices.  It just doesn't make sense to incur the conversion losses going from a DC source/battery up to 115AC and then back down to 5VDC.  And with the high copper prices, it makes sense to use the smallest conductors necessary....  The NEC will need to evolve also.
 
I won't see AC wall plates disappearing in my lifetime as there's always need for refrigerators, space heaters, power tools, etc.  But just moving lighting and the growing electronics base over to DC distribution is a major paradigm shift that needs to occur.
 
<end of soapbox speech>

 

[wkearney99]

Heh, how soon before it degrades into an Edison vs Westinghouse argument over AC vs DC?   Is there some sort of "Godwin's Law" for that?
 
Conversion loss rectifying AC to DC is one thing, but so is loss over wire distances.  It'd be a good parallel effort to mandate certain minimums for that.  I seem to recall efforts along those lines, outlawing crappy wall warts?   That and DC-DC converts likewise have efficiency issues.  AC has been a 'least problematic' solution for a lot of good reasons.
 
As you hint, high-drain devices with motors would need monstrously large zero gauge wires to operate.  But so would things like strings of track lights or pendants.  
 
I'd welcome a standard for DC usage that improves efficiency of power consumption.  But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen for residential use any time soon.

 

[pete_c]

Personally here I would someday like all of my LED lighting to be DC verses AC and taking care of it self internally versus depending on the grid.  Note that I only write about lighting here.
 
Locally a neighbor set up two solar panels on the back of his home going to a few batteries.  This configuration is taking care of all his LV outdoor LED lighting just fine for free.
 
Personally converted all of my outdoor LV to LED (some 12 zones these days) and it works fine.  I could probably put this stuff on batteries and not worry about it anymore.
 
I doubt very much too here that LV / DC residential infrastructure is close by as my fuse panel design is still 50 years old. 

 

[drvnbysound]

I don't see it as preferable either.  Especially not for residential.  Why?  Decor, that's why.  There's a staggering volume of choices when it comes to decorating your home and light fixtures are no exception.  Having just dropped around $3k for less than a dozen fixtures I know the adventures involved.  It's bad enough narrowing down LED, CFL, incandescent, on-device controls, corded or hardwired, it's a chore.  The idea of adding PoE to that mix is ridiculous, at best.  There's also the problem of voltage drop and carrying capacity.  The thin gauges typically used for PoE make it impractical for anything other than LED.  AC may have it's issues but DC isn't ideal for longer distances.
 
For commercial it's another matter.  There's already quite a lot being done with 0-10v setups, DMX, and any number of schemes for near-element transformers and wireless controls.  In those situations where you're talking about hundreds of the same fixtures, repeated endlessly across a sea of cubicles there's definitely something to be said for maximizing energy usage.  

 
Maybe I should have been more clear. I was answering Mike's [original] question about POE cameras vs non-POE ones (see quote below). My preference is to use POE cameras vs having to use a separate transformer and PDU to power cameras.
 
 

DEL
 
I was considering POE for cameras in my house. If not POE then how do you deal with power distribution to camera locations? Is it a transformer for each cam?
 
Mike.

 
 
I don't have a dog in the fight for POE lights and don't really care, but I could definitely foresee POE fixtures for new-construction, residential use in the not so distant future. You'd be able to get a hardwired lighting system (reliability all automators here want) along with control (possibly down to specific color temperature). I've yet to even look into the Hue bulbs so I don't know much about their full capability, but I'm thinking along those lines in a hardwired variant.  

 

[LarrylLix]

"I've yet to even look into the Hue bulbs so I don't know much about their full capability, but I'm thinking along those lines in a hardwired variant"

Get one and a bridge as a sample. Nice interface and some features but for colour forget it. They can't produce green at all and the closest blue is an indigo violet. For Xmas décor I only use their red and a couple very dim white. The other brands do green,  richly. This was the cost of doing white colour temperatures with three LEDs.
 
MiLight controllers  can do all the colours on RGBWW strips and bulbs except mix white colour temperatures. The interface protocol sucks a fair bit. The CRI on these bulbs (Hue and MiLight) is so poor anyway, I am not sure you want it for everyday usage like reading etc..

 

[wkearney99]

I have a couple of Hue devices, and yeah, the 1st generaton strips weren't great at full range of colors.  The standalone "Bloom" spot/wash lamps are actually a lot better.  I have a pair I plan on using for Xmas red and green and they produce a nice, rich set of red & green colors.  $59 on the shelf at Home Depot the other day, quite a drop from $99 of a few months ago.
 
That market for automation of RGBW tape lighting is in very early days.  There's a lot out there and the staggering majority of it is garbage.
 
There's a lot to juggle when it comes to dealing with RGBW tape, stable voltage, on-wall control (not just on/off, but dimming AND color) light temps, color reproducibility, the list goes on.  One big hassle with tape is dealing with keeping the colors 'the same' in anything other than short strip.  If, for example, you need to go all the way around a room (ceiling cove molding) or under a bunch of cabinets or shelves, you pretty much have to order a very long roll and cut it as necessary.  That and deal with properly powering the long stretches.  Otherwise there's no guarantee two different supplies of tape will be able to produce the same colors.  And that's just assuming you'll be controlling them together.  Add separate controllers and it really becomes tedious trying to color match.  DMX helps, but that's a whole other can of worms.  
 
I've just ordered some Fibaro and Dresden controllers (z-wave and zigbee respectively).  I'll likely start another thread on those. 

 

[Del91574]

Maybe I should have been more clear. I was answering Mike's [original] question about POE cameras vs non-POE ones (see quote below). My preference is to use POE cameras vs having to use a separate transformer and PDU to power cameras.
 
 
 
 
I don't have a dog in the fight for POE lights and don't really care, but I could definitely foresee POE fixtures for new-construction, residential use in the not so distant future. You'd be able to get a hardwired lighting system (reliability all automators here want) along with control (possibly down to specific color temperature). I've yet to even look into the Hue bulbs so I don't know much about their full capability, but I'm thinking along those lines in a hardwired variant.  

You can't even get a house together without a simple cable being damaged (4/22, 4/18 or even coax). Imagine a house with POE based lighting.....way too easy for a catastrophic damage to occur and you're not talking about something simple, like a motion or door contact, but critical, like lighting. Yes, the NEC would need to adapt to meet the technology based portion, but that's not the complete answer here.
 
I'm not getting into the war of currents. Once you know all that is involved, it's never going to be simple or straightforward to go from the existing AC infrastructure to a DC based model. Just too inefficient, even when you're talking a short distance like in a house. Far easier to distribute small transformers for the devices or a centralized hub to plug those devices into. Even the Tesla powerwall has it's issues that would need to be considered. For that matter, we might as well discuss changing the frequency and voltages being distributed....that could lead to a very lively discussion upon itself.

 

[wkearney99]

I'm finding devices like Anker (and other brand) multi-port USB chargers are very handy.  While I've never taken to measuring, I'm left with the impression those are less-wasteful overall than a bunch of separate wall warts.  They're certainly tidier at the outlet.  
 
I have on my 'to do' list a cabinet for charging all our gizmos.  Right now they're kind of spread around, but I have at least concentrated a bunch of the stuff to some shelving in the office closet.  And going a step further, I've got the power strip feeding their transformers on an overnight schedule.  This way they're not running 24x7, just from 1am to 4am.  Same thing with power strips in the workshop and a shed.  Battery chargers for tools and kids 12v vehicles on those.
 
I mention this here only because if you're building the house, it's never too early to plan around stuff like this.

 

[Del91574]

It's a curious thing when you start doing the overall calculations. Of course, YMMV with vampire loads, but some of the smaller LV transformers...it's literally less than pocket change to leave them plugged in 24/7. While it's not "green" the overall cost savings of migrating from X to Y or loadshedding to a single device usually doesn't completely pan out.
 
The same could hold true if you did calcs to factor in what the load of a light module dimmed to near zero or being turned "off" but still in a standby state. Law of diminishing returns.
 
There was a pretty good sized article about the vampire loads in a house, vs. standby or items that can't be really turned off and the overall cost savings associated. Just like when you pick an AHU. Many times the cost outlay for the beginning compared to what the overall return might be, really doesn't pan out and the break even point may or may not truly exist, other than the "feel good" feeling.

 

[LarrylLix]

I have a couple of Hue devices, and yeah, the 1st generaton strips weren't great at full range of colors. The standalone "Bloom" spot/wash lamps are actually a lot better. I have a pair I plan on using for Xmas red and green and they produce a nice, rich set of red & green colors. $59 on the shelf at Home Depot the other day, quite a drop from $99 of a few months ago.



That market for automation of RGBW tape lighting is in very early days. There's a lot out there and the staggering majority of it is garbage.



There's a lot to juggle when it comes to dealing with RGBW tape, stable voltage, on-wall control (not just on/off, but dimming AND color) light temps, color reproducibility, the list goes on. One big hassle with tape is dealing with keeping the colors 'the same' in anything other than short strip. If, for example, you need to go all the way around a room (ceiling cove molding) or under a bunch of cabinets or shelves, you pretty much have to order a very long roll and cut it as necessary. That and deal with properly powering the long stretches. Otherwise there's no guarantee two different supplies of tape will be able to produce the same colors. And that's just assuming you'll be controlling them together. Add separate controllers and it really becomes tedious trying to color match. DMX helps, but that's a whole other can of worms.



I've just ordered some Fibaro and Dresden controllers (z-wave and zigbee respectively). I'll likely start another thread on those.


There are standard RGBWW strips commonly available on eBay. The quality is excellent and the five different strips I have ordered from different suppliers all match colours perfectly as well as the MiLight bulbs, almost. I have to tweak the udp packets slightly from my ISY994i A controller to force them to match on a few odd colours.
 
The Hues cannot match the green-blue ranges at all. I haven't tried the Hue strips yet as the price and short lengths is too prohibitive.
 
Others have reported the same thing with the Hue bulbs and RGBW strips  purchased in the last two months, although somewhat better than earlier batches. This supports your complaint about the colours not matching. Philips colour chart must have been modified to accommodate a full colour reproduction as their online chart still shows no decent  green or true blue colour production.
 
Decent RGBWW strips are not available from HD. Their strips are overpriced and mostly toys by comparison.
 
I measured the 5m length of the 3528? RGBWW strips and the most power they can consume is just under 20 watts. A regulated switching 12v 60W  power supply can be purchased for the under $10 mark and can handle 10m of strips easily. I wouldn't recommend longer than that as the conductors on the strips start to become overloaded, Three 5m strips from one PSU and controller  would easily handle any kitchen cabinet tops or cabinets I have witnessed.
 
The Fibaro controllers are reported, by others, to have full pastel mixing capability. Trouble is, I don't  use Zwave and hope to never have to add another protocol onto my HA controller. ISY994i can accommodate a Zwave interface and that may have to  happen someday.

 

[wkearney99]

Of the limited purchases I've made, I've not found 'excellence' among the qualities of eBay LED purchases.  YMMV, clearly.  Got links to your sellers that you'd be willing to share?  
 
Agreed HD useless-ness and on Philips pricing for the strips being a bit much.  I bought mine on sale and have always planned to hack off the controller and use that with other tapes.    
 
If you think Philips is expensive, try pricing Lutron Ivalo Lumaris.  They do look VERY nice, however.
 
My next step is to look into extrusion channels for mounting, preferably ones with some sort of diffusing aspect to the cover.  I do not want any impression of pin-points of lights reflected on the glossy counters below.

 

[Neurorad]

I added a charging station to our new row of cabinets, being installed tomorrow. Left enough room for a vertically mounted power strip, near the front of the cabinet - shelves are slightly recessed. Anker USB strip will be mounted on the top shelf.

Funny you should mention it - Lutron Lumaris will be the undercabinet strip light. I felt the need to splurge for the high CRI. 126" total, 2 drivers needed. Paul at Hank's is helping to spec, well short of MSRP (but still pretty steep). Control via RA2, from KPs and from Picos mounted under-cabinet. Dimmers mounted hidden away inside upper cabinet.

 

[LarrylLix]

@Bill
 
here is one of the dealers I dealt with that gave me credit for a bad 4" section so they are trying hard and prices are about the cheapest I have found.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-DC12V-IP65-5050SMD-RGB-White-RGBW-or-RGB-Warm-White-RGBWW-LED-Flex-Strip-/221714425818

Some things to  know.
- constant push to sell 4 pin stuff and RGB strips. RGB strips cannot do a working white. Careful when you order.
 
- pigtail connectors, female and male are the same connector with a dual end 5 pin adapter stuck in the end.
These were the only connections that actually ad to be stripped and connected into terminals. The rest just plugs together.
 
- MiLight controllers take a 2.1 x 5.5mm 12vdc pos centre and have terminals for wires. Look for USULC or CSA rated.
 
-  Some PSUs come with ground pin which I had to break off for the extension cord. Grounding the plastic case was nonsense anyway. I bought 60W PSU units and I also found 12v 3A wallwart units work just fine.
 
- the solderless snap on 5 pin connector does not fit the 5050 or 3528? LED strips despite being sold for them. Soldering a 5 pin double ended adapter on the new end looks promising (as they come with). These come with every item you purchase almost. I haven't attempted that yet.
 
- the 5m strips come with a connector on each end. Cut the strips on a 4" cutting mark and get two pieces out of each 5 length. Mine just worked out to no waste.
 
- The LimitlessLED/MiLight  bridge/hub only controls 4 groups (addresses). I have two bridges at different IP addresses. PITA  A group can be any number of bulbs or strips. You must be able to put out 3 byte UDP packets over Wi-Fi to control these.
 
- Don't get RGBW (Cold white). After seeing RGBWW I replaced all my RGBW strips. The bulbs come both colours, also. The cold white was so purple I hated it against other bulbs in the room. The RGBWW puts out a nice 3000-3800K light for working.
 
- There is clear silicone two screw clamps available for these strips. Self-Adhesive lets go after two hours if usage.