Ocuplet mom, WTF???

CollinR

Senior Member
This clown of a Dr. should have his license pulled...

The Beverly Hills doctor whose fertility treatment led to the birth of Nadya Suleman’s octuplets — and her six previous children — has one of the worst success rates of any fertility clinic in the country, according to federal records reviewed by the Los Angeles Times.

Taxpayers are already footing part of the bill for a situation he helped create. Suleman receives $490 a month in food stamps, and three of her first six children are disabled and receiving federal benefits. Moreover, Kaiser Permanente Hospital in suburban Bellflower has asked California’s health plan for the poor to cover the cost for the eight premature infants in its care, according to multiple sources familiar with the case.

Suleman’s publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed the information about the food stamps and federal supplemental security income after two sources informed the Times of the benefits. Three sources told the Times that Kaiser has requested Medi-Cal reimbursement for care of the octuplets, which is estimated to run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Furtney declined to confirm the Medi-Cal coverage and referred the question to Kaiser, which also declined comment.

The disclosures came as information emerged about the doctor who provided Suleman, a 33-year-old single mother, with the in vitro fertilizations that led to all 14 of her children. In an interview on NBC, she identified the clinic as West Coast IVF Clinic, which is run by Michael Kamrava.

According to federal records reviewed by the Times, of the 61 procedures Kamrava conducted in 2006 — the most recent data available — only five resulted in pregnancies and only two of those resulted in births. One of those births was Suleman’s twins.

“These are the worst numbers I’ve ever seen. This is absurdly low,” said Dr. Mark Surrey, another fertility specialist in Beverly Hills.

But in Suleman, Kamrava found a patient who got pregnant and gave birth every time. For seven years, Suleman attempted to get pregnant through artificial insemination and fertility drugs. When she finally tried in vitro fertilization at Kamrava’s clinic, it worked the first time — and each time after that.

Kamrava, 57, has been a proponent of placing newly created embryos in a capsule and cultivating them inside the vagina for a few days before transferring them to the uterus in hopes of achieving a pregnancy. More recently, he has promoted a little-used technique employing a camera to help place embryos in the lining of the uterus. In 2006, he and Suleman appeared in a local television news segment about how the technique could boost the chances that embryos would take.

And on his Web site, he touts his “breakthrough technology that has revolutionized IVF.”

In fact, Kamrava’s clinic has a much lower rate of pregnancies and births than the vast majority of fertility clinics. Suleman’s five previous pregnancies — which resulted in four single births and a set of twins — represents a sizable portion of his success over the past several years.

His history of poor results comes despite Kamrava placing more embryos per procedure than all but 10 of the nation’s 426 fertility clinics for patients under 35. In 2006, he averaged 3.5 embryos per in vitro fertilization treatment, compared with the national average of 2.3.

Other fertility specialists said that placing high numbers of embryos is a common way that poorly performing clinics try to boost their pregnancy rates. But that increases the risk of multiple births, which pose a danger to the woman and her babies.

Dr. Philip McNamee, a fertility specialist in Honolulu, said Kamrava might have figured he had little to worry about when he transferred six embryos to Suleman last year since his success rates were so low and her embryos had been frozen and thawed. Frozen embryos lead to pregnancy less often than fresh ones.

“That is one logical explanation of why he thought in his mind he could do it,” McNamee said.

Still, he and other doctors strongly condemned the decision, especially because Suleman had a history of successful pregnancies.

In her NBC interview, Suleman defended her doctor. She called her treatment “very appropriate,” particularly because of her history of miscarriages and scarred fallopian tubes.

“The most I would have ever anticipated would have been twins,” Suleman said. “It wasn’t twins times four.”

Kamrava declined comment Monday.

This is not the first time he has faced controversy. At least two former employees have sued him, including Shirin Afshar, an office administrator who alleged that Kamrava engaged in insurance and tax fraud. She also said he routinely asked her to participate in medical procedures even though she was not licensed to do so.

The suit said Kamrava required patients to pay their bills in cash, which was then put in an envelope and given to Kamrava’s wife, who “never entered the payment into the computer and never deposited the payment in the bank” so that Kamrava could avoid paying income tax on the money. The clinic kept two sets of books, one for insurance payments and one for cash payments, the lawsuit alleged.

Afshar also claimed that Kamrava’s office defrauded insurance companies by double billing for procedures and by billing companies for unnecessary medication that Kamrava kept and then re-sold to other patients. In addition, the suit claims that Kamrava’s office billed insurance companies for one procedure and then performed another.

The suit appeared to have settled in 1999, shortly before it went to trial.

In another case, Shantal Rajah, an embryologist from England, was awarded more than $300,000 in back pay, attorneys fees and damages after working for Kamrava for less than a month. Court papers show that Rajah and Kamrava did not get along and at one point got into a fight over the proper heating of embryos.

Suleman’s case has evoked both fascination and fury by the public and medical community, with many wondering how she will care for 14 children.

Suleman, who lives with her mother in a three-bedroom home, acknowledged in the NBC interview that she was struggling to support her six children before the birth of her octuplets. But she said she knows she will be able to pay their bills, especially after she earns her master’s degree in counseling.

She denied that she was on welfare — a comment her publicist later clarified.

“In Nadya’s view, the money that she gets from the food stamp program ... and the resources disabilities payments she gets for her three children are not welfare,” Furtney said. “They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare.”

Linkage



The California woman who gave birth to octuplets has no income and intends to use student loans to care for them and her other six children at home, all under the age of 8.

“Do you have any income at all?” TODAY’s Ann Curry asked Nadya Suleman during her exclusive interview with the 33-year-old mother of 14 children.

“At the moment, no,” Suleman replied, adding that she intended to use student loans “temporarily” to pay for her family’s care.

“Right now, you don’t have an income to provide for your children?” Curry repeated.

“Probably just with the student loans,” Suleman said. “I am providing for my children. I am. And that will probably run out by the time I go back to school. So I have my own way. It’s an alternative way, but it works.”

Public backlash
Curry told TODAY’s Matt Lauer and Meredith Vieira that while many people view the birth of octuplets as a miracle, “there has been an intense public backlash,” particularly from people who see the cost of raising the children ultimately being borne by taxpayers.

“I’m responsible. I am not on welfare,” Suleman told Curry. “I don’t want to disparage or seem like I’m disparaging any individual who uses welfare as a form of a resource. It can be a valuable resource. I’ve chosen never to go on welfare. I feel that it is my responsibility to do what I can to provide for my children.”

But published reports say that Suleman is receiving at least two forms of public assistance.

All of Suleman’s children are under the age of 8, and she now has 10 children under the age of 2. According to The Los Angeles Times, three of her older children have disabilities and receive Supplemental Security Income. In addition, Suleman reportedly receives $490 a month in food stamps from the state of California.

NBC chief medical editor Dr. Nancy Snyderman has estimated that the cost of delivering the octuplets and keeping them in neonatal intensive care until they are ready to leave the hospital will be $1.5 million to $3 million. The Los Angeles Times has reported that Kaiser Permanente Medical Center, where the babies will remain for several weeks, has asked California’s medical insurance program, Medi-Cal, to pay the tab.

‘Not welfare’
Michael Furtney, a publicist for Suleman, told The Associated Press that Suleman does not think of the public funds she does receive as welfare.

“In Nadya's view, the money that she gets from the food stamp program ... and the resources disabilities payments she gets for her three children are not welfare,” he said. “They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare.”

From 1997 to 2006, Suleman was employed by a state mental hospital. She was disabled in a riot in 1999 and received disability payments totaling about $165,000 until those payments stopped during her pregnancy.

Suleman said she intends to go back to college in the fall to get a degree in counseling. She told Curry that while she was still able to work, she saved as much money as she could as she lived with her mother, Angela.

“I was able to work double shifts — constantly working double shifts. I was hoarding my money — nonstop working. I really didn’t have much of a social life,” Suleman said. “My friends would go, ‘Are you saving for a house, a car?’

“ ‘No, I’m saving for babies.’ ”

After trying for seven years to get pregnant, Suleman turned to in vitro fertilization, paying for “several” of the procedures she has undergone with the money she saved.

Slideshow

8 amazing babies
The story of controversial mom Nadya Suleman and her remarkable octuplets


Curry asked how much money she spent on in vitro procedures.

“I don’t know. I would say close to 100,” Suleman replied.

“A hundred thousand dollars?” Curry asked.

“Probably,” Suleman said. “Yeah, definitely.”

Linkage
 
She clearly has some issues. I've read some of the stories about her and it sounds like she had a rough childhood and was basically neglected. So somehow she thinks having babies makes her feel loved now. The more babies she has, the more she feels loved. She definitely needs a psych evalutation.

I agree with CollinR and personally think the doctor should loose his license after allowing her to go through that many treatments and get pregnant that many times with clearly no way to support the children. But it seems like he has no morals himself and simply looked at the amount of money he would make from each proceedure and not if the proceedure was the best thing for the patient.
 
methinks collinr is bored @home today, given all these wacky wiring closet threads he's starting.
 
I could have sworn this message board was for automation discussions but apparently I was wrong. :lol:
 
Hehe...all depends on the state of your "Wiring Closet". I know I've got a heck of alot more junk stored in there than just wires.
 
methinks collinr is bored @home today, given all these wacky wiring closet threads he's starting.


Hehe..ya, that's what I was thinking. Stirrin' the pot a little today.

Although I always enjoy stirring the pot this is in reality due to sleep deprivation. It appears my oldest daughter has epilepsy couple months back on a road trip she had a seizure in the back seat did the whole 911 on the side of the road fight with amublance ppl to take us all the way back to Tulsa rather then BFE hospital we were close to. Several days in the hospital, this was just after new years thus blowing my max out of pocket for both years in a matter of weeks. Anyway she still randomly has seizures usually at night and so wife and I get no sleep worring about whats going to happen when and so on.

On and to boot I got to RENT maybe $1500 worth of (MACE with axis streamer and ethernet over power) CCTV crap for a "long term video EEG" installed by an unlicensed nurses aide for a term of 3 days. I'll be VERY interested to see how much that costs.

Anyway if your kid one day has a seizure:

Don't stick anything in their mouth, much wives tale BS. They will not swallow their tounge. They will however break your finger or chip teeth.
Seizures lasting less then 5 minutes aren't as big a deal, go ahead and call 911 but don't expect the ER techs to get too excited.
The flopping around part you see on TV isn't the worst part. After that you will swear the kid had some kinda stroke and is braindead, this is normal don't freak.
Let the kid sleep, it's not like a concushion no need to keep them awake. If thats even possible.
It's rather common evidently 1:10 kids has at least one, again don't freak.

Do all the logical stuffs, see professionals.

Now she has had more seizures then I can count and all we are instructed to do is document when they start, when they stop any obvious cause and report that to the neurologist.

Several things cause them, often blood sugar but could be brain tumor. My kid has neither.

I could have sworn this message board was for automation discussions but apparently I was wrong. :lol:

It is anything goes in the wiring closet! Actually E said anything not illegal, so ya never know T&A may be around any corner. Watch for NSFW! (Not Safe For Work) prepended to the thread titles. No goatse or tubgirl I have some kinda sence about me.
 
Ya, I've been VERY fortunate not to have experienced one yet, but I'm told the seizures look a whole lot scarier than they actually are (usually). To put it in terms I could understand, I was once told it's basically a "reboot" for the brain. :lol:
 
Check out the beginning of the third paragrapgh in the quote, "Suleman’s publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed..." She's got a bloody publicist!!! That's what its all about. The heck with trying to make a living as a CE Integrator, I'm gonna be a publicist. Anybody here have a screwed up life they want the world to know about? We could make a bundle. As for the learned doctor? I have a wiring closet, some spare cat5 and a rack that may suit him just fine. How's that for tying this back to AV?

Sorry to hear about your daughter. I hope things get better real fast for you and your family.

Rick
 
It is anything goes in the wiring closet! Actually E said anything not illegal, so ya never know T&A may be around any corner. Watch for NSFW! (Not Safe For Work) prepended to the thread titles. No goatse or tubgirl I have some kinda sence about me.

That was a little Easter E Egg, just to see if he was paying attention. He was! :lol:


Ya, I've been VERY fortunate not to have experienced one yet, but I'm told the seizures look a whole lot scarier than they actually are (usually). To put it in terms I could understand, I was once told it's basically a "reboot" for the brain. :lol:

Why you say they you got 14 kids or something? You aren't on food stamps and SS are you? If so I didn't mean to be offensive! :lol: :lol:

Yes the after effect you think your kid is braindead, by far the worst part of the first time experience.
 
Sorry for your troubles, CollinR. Your daughter's seizure must have been a very traumatic experience and reinforced the helplessness one feels in such situations. Although I am not a parent, I can empathize with a parent's responsibility for raising healthy, happy, and self-confident children with a promising future. Reading about someone with 14 children, with little means of supporting them, leads one to conclude that responsibility for her children's future was not a factor in her decision.

In the spirit of stirring the pot:
I recently watched Michael Moore's "Sicko". Mr. Moore's films employ "reality-distortion" techniques to help make his point. Notwithstanding his "fact-filtering" abuses, his films do raise awareness of important issues. I believe the film's comparison of the health systems in the US, Canada, England, and France is eye-opening.

As a Canadian, I accept my responsibility as a taxpayer to provide "universal public health care" for fellow Canadians. It is the kind of society we want and the late politician who conceived of the plan, Tommy Douglas, was voted the "Greatest Canadian".

If I fall ill, I go to a clinic or hospital, show my provincial health-care card, and proceed to receive quality medical attention. I can do this in anywhere in Canada.

Is it as free as described in the film? No. There may be charges for transportation via ambulance or if you want a private hospital room. If your family doctor requests lab tests, they are free if you go to a hospital. If you don't want to wait weeks (or months) for the free tests, there are private labs that will perform them for a fee. If you have private insurance, most of these extra charges are covered (about 80% of the cost is refunded). However, most medical procedures are covered so if you cut off your fingers in an accident (as depicted in the film), you won't pay a dime for the surgery and the physiotherapy. Reality check: you've been paying into the system via your taxes since your first job so it has cost you something ... just not $80K to have all your fingers re-attached.

It may sound like an HMO (and I only know about how they work by way of US newscasts) but it is less restrictive (choose whatever doctor and hospital you want). Where there are restrictions or omissions (i.e. no dental coverage nor prescribed drugs), you can purchase private insurance.

Now let's crank Canada's health-care system up a notch:
About 15 years ago, I had an accident on the last day of my vacation in Greece. My knee was banged up and swollen and I couldn't bend it. My flight back to Montreal was by way of London. I visited a hospital in London. After a half-hour wait I was admitted, diagnosed, had my knee drained and bandaged, given medication and a set of crutches, and instructed to see my doctor when I returned to Canada. Total cost was zero pounds.

I didn't understand it. I pointed out that, although Canada is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, I was not a British tax-payer so why was there no charge? They smiled (like in Moore's movie) and indicated that the National Heath Service provides free health care. It was free to citizens and visitors. Why was that concept so difficult to comprehend; it was a standard they set for their society. I respect their decision and hope Canada can achieve this level of social evolution.

BTW, the Canadian health care system does not cover the sort of treatments received by Ms. Suleman.
 
I have been hearing horror stories about health care in the UK for years, I don't think any country has a perfect system but the U.S. has unbelieable good medical available for a cost, if I need a medical procedure that is beyond the capabilities of my local doctors they will send me to a better hospital. In my area that would be USC medical center.

I found this story on Canadian healthcare interesting. http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.a...299282509335931
 
No question that the USA has some of the best health care available in the world ... and that statement is tempered by the qualifier you added "for a cost". If you can afford it, you are fortunate. If you can just barely afford it, or your insurer finds cause for disqualifying you, you are ruined financially. If you can't afford it, you become a statistic. Canadians deemed this a little too "Darwinian" and opted for something else.

There's a scene in Michael Moore's film that describes the practice of HMO hospitals dropping off patients (for whatever reason the HMO deemed them to be "bad customers") in front of free clinics. Shocking! I refuse to believe this is a common occurance but I get Moore's point that the "profit-motive" is not necessarily the best fit for healthcare.

One could see how it would also be a bad fit for other essential services like the police and fire departments. "I understand your home is on fire but I'm afraid your fire-coverage has lapsed so we cannot dispatch a fire truck to your home. May I suggest a garden hose?". "Gosh, your home has a pre-existing condition in the form of being in a high-crime area so we cannot provide you with police insurance. May I suggest a good lock, a large dog, and a shotgun?"

The article was interesting and, like Michael Moore, tailored certain facts to support their position. I was born and raised in Quebec and I doubt it ever could hold title to "the largest and most affluent in the country". Quebec has received transfer payments from the Federal government for as long as I can remember (transfer payments = affluent provinces pay for services in underprivileged provinces so that all Canadians 'share the load'). Claude Castonguay's recent observations were controversial and ultimately rejected. He proposed the greater availability of private services and user fees ... in a nutshell, more choice. On the surface, I agree with him but recognize that it's a slippery slope from "more choice" to two health-care systems, one for the rich and the other for the poor. Canadians want improvements to the current system and not a entirely new system that favours some. BTW, there are private doctors who practice medicine (legally) outside of the health-care system. Never seen one; I have a family doctor who I see when needed ... which reminds me, I need to schedule my annual checkup!

Our system is imperfect. It was better once but has now degraded. Neglect and mismanagement are to blame and not the basic principle of universal healthcare. Wait times at an Emergency ward can be excruciatingly long (hours). I've joked that the triage they perform is "battlefield-grade" ... is that blood squirting out of you? OK, head of the line ... wracked by abdominal pain? A doctor will see you in 4 hours. I experienced it first hand last year and it was terrible. There was a public outcry and the current provincial government loosened the purse-strings and a lot is being done to reduce wait times and improve access. Sending people off to the US for medical treatments does happen ... a two-tier healthcare system is available to Canadians. :angry: Of course, that happens because of overloading in Canada (bad planning, mismanagement, etc). It can be fixed; the USA can learn from our mistakes. You're welcome!

I don't ever expect to see the USA adopt a universal healthcare plan (or the metric system). However, it'll be interesting to see if the position is softened as a result of the current economic crisis. No job means no employer-sponsored healthcare coverage and less ability to retain private health insurance. I can't even begin to fathom what a precarious position that places one's family. Thank you, Tommy Douglas; the fruits of your labour are imperfect but humane.
 
We have some people fall through the cracks but rationing healthcare causes the same problem, what do you do if the government deems your life not worth the cost to save? In California people who don't have a health plan and can't afford to pay still can get medical treatment, most any half decent job includes a health plan as part of your compensation. If we didn't have a system like we do now in the U.S., where would people go when their country can't provide the treament they need? Lots of people come to the U.S. for medical treatment that they can't get at home or the wait maybe longer then they will live without it.

No system will ever be perfect but I believe universal healthcare will mean a serious rationing of care here.
 
Back
Top