qouestion about using fox and hound - broken wire

[charliebarns]

Hey guys.

So I've terminated all my wires and all are fine except one, one that I had the builder move since despite me marking it with a penny nail in the exact corner location and height, they decided to drop it out of the ceiling instead, which looked ridiculous. So I had them move it (after drywall was up) to the correct corner location (for a motion sensor). Well, of course, there are issues with the wire. I pretty sure there's not much I can do as I need all 4 wires, but I wanted to get feedback on my fox/hound wire tracer findings:

In trying to tone the wire to find the problem here is what happens:

1) Trying to tone the red and black wire - almost no tone comes through, I can just faintly here it. Hooking up power to the motion using red and black, power does not come through (verified with multimeter)
2) Trying to tone the yellow and green wire - no tone comes through. When these two are connected to a zone the zone reports "secure", however, this is with no connection at the motion end (no cross between yellow and green)
3) Trying to tone the red and yellow together - strong tone comes through.
4) Trying to tone the red and green together - strong tone comes through.
5) Trying to tone the black and yellow together - strong tone comes through.
6) Trying to tone the black and green together - strong tone comes through.

I'm assuming this indicates a break somewhere with the red and black touching, and with the green and yellow touching. Is this a valid assumption?

I can't get another wire in this location without cutting a lot of drywall so I guess I'm out of luck

CB

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You need to use a multimeter and measure the resistance on this cable (both continuity and leakage). My How-To on installing a security system goes over this in detail, but if you need help let me know.

It will not tell you "where" the problem is, but at least let you know what wires in the bundle are good and which are not.

 

[Neurorad]

Do you have or will you you have crown molding? Is the wire fastened to studs, in the wall or ceiling - can you use it to pull a new wire? What's above?

You may be able to find a wireless unit, that only needs 2 wires for power...I dunno.

 

[charliebarns]

Do you have or will you you have crown molding? Is the wire fastened to studs, in the wall or ceiling - can you use it to pull a new wire? What's above?

You may be able to find a wireless unit, that only needs 2 wires for power...I dunno.

No Crown molding. the wire is stapled to the studs in the wall so I can't use it to pull a new one. Drywalled ceiling and 2nd floor above this

I just measured resistance and using a 2000K scale this is what I see:

Black - Red - 700-1000 (fluctuates)
Black - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Black - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Red - Green - 1400-1600 (fluctuates)
Red - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Yellow - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)

So does that mean black, red, and green are compromised?

Thx

 

[icellama21]

Do you have or will you you have crown molding? Is the wire fastened to studs, in the wall or ceiling - can you use it to pull a new wire? What's above?

You may be able to find a wireless unit, that only needs 2 wires for power...I dunno.

No Crown molding. the wire is stapled to the studs in the wall so I can't use it to pull a new one. Drywalled ceiling and 2nd floor above this

I just measured resistance and using a 2000K scale this is what I see:

Black - Red - 700-1000 (fluctuates)
Black - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Black - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Red - Green - 1400-1600 (fluctuates)
Red - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Yellow - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)

So does that mean black, red, and green are compromised?

Thx

If you are not connecting the ends of the wire to anything, that resistance is problematic, but you can still use it. Make sure to carry opposite charge signals(+/-) on wires that are not in contact to avoid potential shorts if the problem gets worse. I'd put the + on yellow, - on red, zone + on green, zone ground on black.

I don't know if I would use it for security due to false alarms, but possibly you can use it for occupancy detection. I'd get a wireless unit for motion detection, they don't cost a lot and have battery life measured in years(esp if you go for one of the GE ones). At the very minimum you have 2 good conductors(yellow and anything else).

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Do you have or will you you have crown molding? Is the wire fastened to studs, in the wall or ceiling - can you use it to pull a new wire? What's above?

You may be able to find a wireless unit, that only needs 2 wires for power...I dunno.

No Crown molding. the wire is stapled to the studs in the wall so I can't use it to pull a new one. Drywalled ceiling and 2nd floor above this

I just measured resistance and using a 2000K scale this is what I see:

Black - Red - 700-1000 (fluctuates)
Black - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Black - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Red - Green - 1400-1600 (fluctuates)
Red - Yellow - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)
Yellow - Green - multimeter stays at 1 (no change)

So does that mean black, red, and green are compromised?

Thx

Sounds like you do have problems as you mentioned, but did you measure continuity also (per that How-To Guide I referenced above)?

 

[WayneW]

Any chance you have a spare wire long enough to run from end to end, just in the interior space of the house? It will probably be easier to determine which wires have continuity if you have one known good wire to run back to the head end. If you can test the wires one-by-one it is much more straight forward. Otherwise it becomes a bit of a logic puzzle.

 

[TXFlatLander]

You could always tape a good wire to the bad wire and use the bad wire as your "pull" string to pull a new wire in place. If it is taped really good, it should follow the same path that it was originally laid (if there is nothing in the current path that will damage the new cable).

 

[charliebarns]

You could always tape a good wire to the bad wire and use the bad wire as your "pull" string to pull a new wire in place. If it is taped really good, it should follow the same path that it was originally laid (if there is nothing in the current path that will damage the new cable).

Thx for all the quick feedback. In the end here's what I did... I had a network wire relatively close (two joist spaces over on a different wall) that was intended to be used for a Nuvo Ipod dock. I split that wire giving 4 new wires to the motion detector, and left the remaining 4 wires for a 10mb connection for the future dock. I'm not sure if 10mb connection is fast enough for the dock but it should be. I had a hell of a time fishing that wire up to the motion detector as it's also in outside walls, hence insulation. God it took me the whole day but it's done, and working!


CB

 

[TXFlatLander]

I split that wire giving 4 new wires to the motion detector, and left the remaining 4 wires for a 10mb connection for the future dock. I'm not sure if 10mb connection is fast enough for the dock but it should be.

Not sure if you want to mess with it, but if you are getting 10mb connection and not 100 mb -- it sounds like you are using one of the RX/TX pairs on 100 connection and only using one pair for RX/TX. As long as you are not running gigabit, the blue/white,blue (pins 4/5) and brown/white,brown (pins 7/8) pairs can be used for your motion detector and still get 100 mb through green/white, green & orange/white, orange.

See here for more information if you need to change it later.

 

[AO-Brandon]

The NuVo iPod dock is not actually a "network" device, and it will require all 4 pairs in the CAT 5e cable. I had a customer with a similar issue unfortunately ...

 

[TXFlatLander]

The NuVo iPod dock is not actually a "network" device, and it will require all 4 pairs in the CAT 5e cable. I had a customer with a similar issue unfortunately ...

Goes to show you how much I know about Nuvo ipod dock

 

[royalj7]

Ouch, that sucks to learn post-op.

--Jamie

 

[Steve]

Good thing for Charlie Nuvo makes a wireless iPod dock! That sounds like the easiest future solution.

 

[tmbrown97]

Steve - Depends on the warranty of whoever ran the wires. That's the first thing I'd check - if they were paid to run a wire that doesn't work, it's their problem to fix it - even if it means cutting walls, repairing drywall, etc... THAT'S what I'd push for.

otherwise all the posts here are the best advice you'll get.