Retrofitting smokes

[rsw686]

My current 110v smokes are approaching 10 years old. I'm undecided on GE 350 / 350CX smoke alarms and retrofitting 2 wire smoke detectors with integrated sounders. I want notification when I am away that a smoke has gone off, but am worried about inspection when I sell the house.

I looked at the codes and in short it states smoke alarms must be 110v and interconnected and smoke detectors must be connected to a monitored panel. With smoke detectors the future owner is stuck with paying for monitoring or putting back the 110v smokes. With the GE350CX I have no supervision, the possibility that the relay doesn't work, and no clean me notification.

If I go with the 2 wire smokes it looks like I need the following to interface with the HAI OmniPro II.

GE 429CST Smoke Detector, 2-Wire, Sounder, Heat, 12/24VDC, UL
ESL 405-03 Polarity Reversing Relay
ESL 505 CleanMe Module / 2 to 4 Wire Converter

If I don't care about the clean me notification do I need the ESL 505? The HAI manuals states compatibility with the GE 429AT which looks to be the same without the sounder. Obviously the panel can't reverse the polarity out of the box so the sounder won't go off until I add the ESL 405-03.

When reusing the existing 110v wire what is the best method to allow for reconnecting 110v smoke alarms? Should I remove the wire from the breaker, cap it in the breaker panel and first smoke junction box, and run the 18/2 firewire to that box from the HAI panel? Or is this considering mixing high and low voltage even though the wire is capped? Do the 14/3 wires fit under the smoke detector terminals or if I have to pigtail are standard wire nuts connecting to 18/2 sufficient?

Obviously if I went the GE350CX route I would be mixing high and low voltage, but I would just remove the wire when selling the property. If I had to revert the 2 wire smokes then I need to purchase new smokes to replace them as my current are past 10 years old, which is an additional expense.

It looks like I also need to check every smoke junction box to make sure they are wired in series. It sounds like with 110v smokes it is possible to branch off two directions from a single detector. If that is the case then I can't install the 2 wire smokes without rewiring it to be series?

 

[Del91574]

I won't get into the whole 120VAC to alarm panel connection and scenario. Far too much and plenty has been posted on it by those who do it and myself, who think it should be avoided like the plague. Ample reading and links involved.

System Sensor makes a whole setup that would work with 2WTAB's and a RRS-MOD, then install the 2W-MOD2 with it, basically converting the 2 wire loop to a 4 wire loop, so you're not limited to a single manufacturer (GE) for a 2 to 4 wire setup.

IF you're removing the 110VAC from the smoke feed, I would remove from the panel and then remove the romex from the first box (abandoning in place, assuming unfinished basement) and pony all the conductors together under a red or tan wire nut, so even if someone reconnects at the panel, it'll pop the breaker necessitating further investigation (again, assuming the parties involved are "qualified")

The big part that needs to be looked at first to see if a conversion from LV to HV is possible, since I've seen some electricians grab a lighting circuit from the same feed as the smoke detectors. Assuming a 14/3 is run, even if the detectors are T-Tapped, you have enough there to make it work and properly supervise the loop by using the bare conductor.

The smoke manufacturer provides a wire range and size that will fit under their terminals. Pigtailing is an option, however you need to make sure to "break" the loop and not simply tie it through and pigtail to a detector; for a 2 wire fire loop, that means 4 individual conductors being landed at the smoke separately and not twisted, so removing the base or detector generates a trouble condition.

As far as what the legalese what happens if and when the house is sold, that could be subject to debate and interpretation, as the LV units could operate the same as the HV units even if the panel isn't monitored, with the only exception of them not self-restoring (which is one problem with the HV units connecting to a system).

 

[rsw686]

I've read a bunch of the posts already on the 120V smoke debate. If there was an accepted method to have smoke detectors connected to a panel without monitoring this would be an easy decision. It really comes down to how knowledgeable the home inspector is and their opinion.

I do have a circuit breaker labeled smoke detectors and from what I can tell they are isolated on their own circuit. Unfortunately the breaker panel and smokes are all in finished spaces. Good idea on capping the hot / neutral together. I'll just leave it in the box as abandoning it in the ceiling would defiantly be a code violation. Should be safe enough considering if power is applied it will immediately trip.

The alarm panel is located in an unfinished basement HVAC closet and the only basement smoke is a few feet away outside. Should make for a fun time fishing the wire as I have to cross 2-3 joists. It would make sense that it would be first in the chain. Although I will check all smoke boxes before I start ordering parts. I have found a few surprises like the upstairs hall chandelier is wired to the basement light circuit.

 

[rsw686]

I looked at the wiring. The smoke in the basement is first in the chain. It runs to a smoke on the main level and looks to go to the upstairs hallway smoke. At that point it branches off to the master bedroom and to one of two additional bedrooms. Looks like my choices are to use the ground or see if I can access them from the attic to rerun one cable.

 

[rsw686]

I don't know how the GE 429AT smoke detector is listed as compatible in the HAI OmniPro II installation manual. The GE 429AT manual states

"Connect to a power supply that will not automatically reset. Since the self-diagnostics only indicate trouble after 27 hours, if the power supply automatically resets every 24 hours the self-diagnostic indication will never be signaled (the smoke detector will still signal alarm correctly)."

Which will not work if you arm/disarm the system daily as the HAI OmniPro II manual states

"This output is used to cycle power to latching devices when the system is armed."
and
"Whenever the OmniPro II security system is disarmed, the controller will cycle power to the SWITCH 12V or a Switched Power Output to reset smoke detectors and other latching devices."

I used a multimeter and disarmed / armed the system. Each time the switched output was reset. Why do I want to reset my smokes every time I arm / disarm the system?

The manual states to hit * to silence the alarm. However if I walk through the house and there is no fire I can't quickly disarm the system to prevent the dialer from calling or I will not be able to determine which smoke caused the alarm. This seems like a huge oversight. Every other panel I have used makes you disarm twice to reset switched power and clear the display.

Wish I would have noticed this earlier as it might have changed my mind to go with the Elk M1. The HAI panel has some serious security short comings now that I am working with it. The same issue with disarming the alarm happens for burglary where you won't see the faulting zone after disarming without checking the event log. There is also no CO zone type only GAS which makes no sense as having CO detectors is common. Probably the worst is no walk through test so I can't trip all zones myself and go back to the panel and verify all sensors work.

 

[chrisexv6]

That does seem odd to reset the detectors on every arm, Im surprised its setup that way. Only thing I could think of is that its kind of like a "self check" to make sure they always reset. Makes me wonder if constant resetting will lead to a shorter life for the detector(s)

Im not familiar with the HAI rule processing, etc but I wonder if you could have a rule in conjunction with an output and a relay that mimicks resetting the smokes. Looking quickly at the manual they are pretty adamant about where the smokes are connected so while it might be possible it might not be a supported way of doing things.

I went with an Elk panel without even noticing this "issue" with the HAI. Although Im sure there are things the HAI might do better than the Elk.

 

[rsw686]

I went with the HAI for the automation integration. I've had to add rules to address other shortcomings like not being able to disable the entry delay beeping per console. I have two consoles within close range and upon entry both would beep not in sync, which drove me nuts.

I'm not sure adding rules for this will work. I don't know enough about how the smoke detectors work. When they trip and close the contact does it stay closed until the power is cycled? If so then as soon as I disarm, if the smoke isn't power cycled the alarm will go off again.

If that isn't the case I could use a relay in the NC position, which when activated would kill power to the smokes. I would need to do this in sync with the disarm so the controller knows the fire zone should exhibit a trouble condition. The following code might work, but really this should just be built in.

WHEN FIRE ALARM
  THEN SET Fire Flag TO 1
WHEN OFF
  AND IF Fire Flag CURRENT VALUE IS 1
    THEN SHOW Fire Alarm Trip WITH BEEP
    THEN SET Fire Flag TO 2
WHEN OFF
  AND IF Fire Flag CURRENT VALUE IS 2
    THEN UNIT Fire Relay ON FOR 1 SECOND
    THEN SET Fire Flag TO 0

 

[chrisexv6]

I would be hesitant to use rules around something as critical as smoke detectors. The shortcoming of the HAI seems to be a resettable power output that only resets during a smoke detector reset. The Elk HAS such a power output, so no rules or relays are necessary.

Ive always thought of the HAI as primarily home automation before security, and the Elk the complete opposite.

 

[rsw686]

I would be hesitant to use rules around something as critical as smoke detectors. The shortcoming of the HAI seems to be a resettable power output that only resets during a smoke detector reset. The Elk HAS such a power output, so no rules or relays are necessary.

Ive always thought of the HAI as primarily home automation before security, and the Elk the complete opposite.

I'll have to order some parts and test. While I don't like the idea of reinventing the wheel I'm not overly worried since the relay would be hooked up NC. A failure will only prevent resetting the smokes. Additionally if power was lost to the smokes I would receive trouble for that zone. When I did some reading other panels like Ademco have you program a relay or output to reset the smoke into the zone definition.

See page 12 for the Vista 10p at http://lib.store.yah...lationguide.pdf

EDIT: Interestingly HAI has a knowledge base article on using a relay to reset smokes. The issue is the fire verification feature will not work if the smoke detectors are not on the switched terminals. I'll probably wire it up as suggested in the HAI installation manual and see how it works with it cycling the power when arming / disarming.
http://kb.homeauto.com/default.asp?id=376&Lang=1&SID=