I am with Del on this one. JP I think the devise your working with is a smoke alarm which is different than a smoke detector. Without listing the definition of both here let's assume the perfect world where the HV is looped in and out of each detector and can be monitored or supervised via the power supervision relay at the EOL. Do you really want to be notified of a HV power loss each time it happens? This is why panels have a delay on the AC loss, to avoid nuisance alarms or reports.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Smoke Detector Zone
- Thread starter Travis4710
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
@ Giz,
This also does not address the wiring methods that would be used....the detectors are not going to be wired in/out like a system detector....they don't have the provisions to do this, so the wires are going to be pigtailed, which means any detector along the loop can develop an issue or power loss which means the power supervision relay is superfluous hardware that does nothing besides see if the branch circuit has power, not any individual detector, so it's a false sense of security to shotgun a part at the install and trick yourself into believing the unit is doing something that it's not.
This also does not address the wiring methods that would be used....the detectors are not going to be wired in/out like a system detector....they don't have the provisions to do this, so the wires are going to be pigtailed, which means any detector along the loop can develop an issue or power loss which means the power supervision relay is superfluous hardware that does nothing besides see if the branch circuit has power, not any individual detector, so it's a false sense of security to shotgun a part at the install and trick yourself into believing the unit is doing something that it's not.
Still not buying it here. I want to know that my Gentex 503FF smoke/CO alarms are reporting an alarm condition because of a power problem and I would wire power and supervision to them accordingly. I might even use the supervision signal to block the alarm condition from reaching the ELK M1, but it depends on the specifics of the monitoring setup.
And that's the difference between a hobbyist and a professional.
Let me pull down all but the detector with the power supervisiory relay connected to it and the detector wired to the panel and tell me that the relay is actually doing something besides letting you know the pigtailed power is connected and the detector with the IDC is connected to the panel...it tells you only that, not that every other device between A and B is non-functional. Does nothing for informing the system of the integrity of the loop or devices.
False sense of security.
Let me pull down all but the detector with the power supervisiory relay connected to it and the detector wired to the panel and tell me that the relay is actually doing something besides letting you know the pigtailed power is connected and the detector with the IDC is connected to the panel...it tells you only that, not that every other device between A and B is non-functional. Does nothing for informing the system of the integrity of the loop or devices.
False sense of security.
DELInstallations said:And that's the difference between a hobbyist and a professional.
No, it's the difference between a technician and an engineer. Especially since it would appear that you didn't even read my post.
Or your insurer.gizzmo said:Use supervision signal to block an alarm signal? I wouldn't want to be in court explaining the logic in that.
JP, I know exactly what your point is and frankly, I don't care to argue flawed logic or installation practices. As I stated, pull all but the 2 detectors down I stated, hell, disconnect the tandem wire also and tell me how that's different than any failure mode and then tell me how your supervision relay performs.....
I don't want to detect vandalism. I just think the OP would want to know that the ELK M1 is getting a smoke/CO alarm because the power to the detectors is out.
The Gentex 503FF smoke/CO alarms are intact and operable (when power is restored). No court; no insurer; no flawed anything.
The Gentex 503FF smoke/CO alarms are intact and operable (when power is restored). No court; no insurer; no flawed anything.
JP,
You're good at trolling.
Where do you get vandalism?
Removing a detector (or disconnecting the tandem wire) from the loop simulates a failure of the unit.
In your specific install and example, I can remove every detector on the loop except for the one you installed your "supervision" relay at and whichever one is connected to the panel, simulating a failure of connected devices.... and using your installation methodology and practices, the connected system does not know there is any issue with the loop. Same with the opposite side of the relay coil, there is no supervision possible to detect a failure besides performing routine testing, but that will not address if there were a transient that welded the contacts after the last test performed, there is no way for the system to detect and supervise for that failure mode....this is why the relays and connections to FACP's for primary notification are commonly frowned upon and almost every one of the relays are not listed for the purpose and the majority of the detectors also state to NOT connect them to any system with a control panel.
I agree 100% with Gizzmo...and hope you have a very lenient insurer.
You're good at trolling.
Where do you get vandalism?
Removing a detector (or disconnecting the tandem wire) from the loop simulates a failure of the unit.
In your specific install and example, I can remove every detector on the loop except for the one you installed your "supervision" relay at and whichever one is connected to the panel, simulating a failure of connected devices.... and using your installation methodology and practices, the connected system does not know there is any issue with the loop. Same with the opposite side of the relay coil, there is no supervision possible to detect a failure besides performing routine testing, but that will not address if there were a transient that welded the contacts after the last test performed, there is no way for the system to detect and supervise for that failure mode....this is why the relays and connections to FACP's for primary notification are commonly frowned upon and almost every one of the relays are not listed for the purpose and the majority of the detectors also state to NOT connect them to any system with a control panel.
I agree 100% with Gizzmo...and hope you have a very lenient insurer.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 4
- Views
- 235