Tangible Difference CQC vs Homeseer for average DIY

[wkearney99]

BlueIris is a whole other universe of complexities.  My advice is DO NOT attempt to jam multiple services onto one computer.  Trust me on this.  You want your automation stuff to be STABLE.  Not prone to the whims of updates to ancillary bits not directly related to the HA software itself.  BI can gobble enormous amounts of CPU and storage, give it the box your situation requires and leave HA running on another, wholly separate, piece of hardware.

Sure, at some point, it "ought to be possible" to run a lot of things all on one box.  Yeah, well, that nirvana ain't here yet.  Some folks get close but if/when it bites you the hit you take for reliability is not worth it.  The WAF rules all.  
 
That and when selecting in-wall dimmers, be sure to cross-reference the dimmer against your selected LED units.  Not all LEDs are created equal and some are notoriously unreliable when it comes to dimming.  It's not the dimmers that cause the problems, it's crappy bulbs.  Trouble is there's no standardized documentation or requirements for LEDs to make it easy to figure it out.  

 

[LiTtLeJoE]

BlueIris is a whole other universe of complexities.  My advice is DO NOT attempt to jam multiple services onto one computer.  Trust me on this.  You want your automation stuff to be STABLE.  Not prone to the whims of updates to ancillary bits not directly related to the HA software itself.  BI can gobble enormous amounts of CPU and storage, give it the box your situation requires and leave HA running on another, wholly separate, piece of hardware.

Sure, at some point, it "ought to be possible" to run a lot of things all on one box.  Yeah, well, that nirvana ain't here yet.  Some folks get close but if/when it bites you the hit you take for reliability is not worth it.  The WAF rules all.  
 
That and when selecting in-wall dimmers, be sure to cross-reference the dimmer against your selected LED units.  Not all LEDs are created equal and some are notoriously unreliable when it comes to dimming.  It's not the dimmers that cause the problems, it's crappy bulbs.  Trouble is there's no standardized documentation or requirements for LEDs to make it easy to figure it out.  

 
You should author a sticky thread titled; "Foundational Principles of Home Automation" with a single post; "WAF KISSes". Absolutely fantastic advice...   
 
I'm running my entire network (incl. HA systems) inside of multiple ESXi virtual machines on a Dell R720. Blue Iris is sitting in it's own VM on top of WinServ 2016 DC w/12G RAM and a crap-ton of CPUs. I've read the horror stories of BI gobbling up 100% of system resources -no thank you!!! Also, good point about BI complexity. I'm clearly in over my head, but that's often the funnest place to be I'll figure it out one way or another. Probably through lots of attrition and leaning heavily on the advice of well-informed community members such as yourself 
 
Lutron's LED switch compatibility tools seem like a bit of a crap shoot (http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Pages/LEDCompatibilityTool/Compatibility.aspx & http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Service-Support/Pages/Technical/Design-SelectionTools/LEDDimmerMatrix.aspx). I purchased a test bulb from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N64BU4B/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1) that is supposed to be 100% compatible with the 6-ND switches. I guess we'll see... 
 
I forgot to ask, what's your (or anyone else's) take on Elk M1 Gold vs HAI Omni II systems? Elk seems to be much more popular among the DIY crowd, but all the dealers in my area prefer HAI Omni II. I assume that is due to higher profit margins and greater potential for support lock-in, but wondered if you guys knew something else I don't.

 

[pete_c]

Here have an Omni Pro 2 (X2).  Like the footprint size.  
 
With the Omni Pro 2 everything is already on the main board mostly and with the Elk M1 it is very modular and you can go baby steps with it.
 
I would maybe entertain installing the panel yourself whatever panel you choose.  Most of the work involved is in cabling to the panel. 
 
Setting it up with an alarm company is the easy part and very reasonable in price if you do it yourself.
 
Here most of my hardware is bare metal a la carte.  I have built a few combo servers for HA peers NAS-HA software - CCTV et al.

 

[wkearney99]

You should author a sticky thread titled; "Foundational Principles of Home Automation" with a single post; "WAF KISSes". Absolutely fantastic advice...   
 
I'm running my entire network (incl. HA systems) inside of multiple ESXi virtual machines on a Dell R720. Blue Iris is sitting in it's own VM on top of WinServ 2016 DC w/12G RAM and a crap-ton of CPUs. I've read the horror stories of BI gobbling up 100% of system resources -no thank you!!! Also, good point about BI complexity. I'm clearly in over my head, but that's often the funnest place to be I'll figure it out one way or another. Probably through lots of attrition and leaning heavily on the advice of well-informed community members such as yourself 
 
Lutron's LED switch compatibility tools seem like a bit of a crap shoot (http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Pages/LEDCompatibilityTool/Compatibility.aspx & http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Service-Support/Pages/Technical/Design-SelectionTools/LEDDimmerMatrix.aspx). I purchased a test bulb from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N64BU4B/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1) that is supposed to be 100% compatible with the 6-ND switches. I guess we'll see... 
 
I forgot to ask, what's your (or anyone else's) take on Elk M1 Gold vs HAI Omni II systems? Elk seems to be much more popular among the DIY crowd, but all the dealers in my area prefer HAI Omni II. I assume that is due to higher profit margins and greater potential for support lock-in, but wondered if you guys knew something else I don't.

 
I'd like to think this forum (and AVSforum) are two of the best resources online for sage and sobering advice regarding the Wife Acceptance Factor.  It's not just me.  Pete here (among others) can also testify to having a lifetime of battle scars from automation stuff.  

One of the best pieces of advice to take is "learn from the mistakes of others".  

That and SHARE when you make mistakes.  Because most of us would gladly like to learn BEFORE we go and make the same mistakes ourselves.  Search engines are a wonderful thing.  "Thing I'm trying to do" and "error"  or "problem" are the BEST for untangling frustration.  You kids today, you have no idea how hit-and-miss it used to be with pre-Internet stuff like X-10...

I mean, success stories are great too, don't get me wrong.  But sometimes horror stories help a LOT more.  

 

[wkearney99]

Lutron's LED switch compatibility tools seem like a bit of a crap shoot (http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Pages/LEDCompatibilityTool/Compatibility.aspx & http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Service-Support/Pages/Technical/Design-SelectionTools/LEDDimmerMatrix.aspx). I purchased a test bulb from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N64BU4B/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1) that is supposed to be 100% compatible with the 6-ND switches. I guess we'll see... 

 
CALL and ASK Lutron directly if you have bulbs you'd like to use that aren't listed already. 
 
They don't list everything they've tested.  The unofficial reason they don't list everything they've tested is one of liability and not wanting to be antagonistic about products made by others.  It's kind of admirable, really, as they don't want to put "in print" just how horribly some stuff misbehaves.  Or how off-spec the items are compared to their maker's literature.  Lighting dimming ranges are VERY sloppy for a lot of bulbs. 

Lutron sells LED fixtures that will genuinely drop to 1% of measurable light.  Almost NO other vendor can make that claim.  Likewise color reproduction (CRI).  Lots of junk has horrible problems with color (and I'm talking color reflected by white light, not RGB as that's a whole other train wreck).  This is also why Lutron dimmers have a top/bottom cut-off range for dimming.  No sense dropping dimming down below what a bulb can perform.  Bracketing the trim allows the user to think they're dimming, but the circuit is trimmed to avoid problems.  Try dimming to 1% on a bulb that can't go lower than 20% and you'll see flickering.  This way you can bump up the threshold and avoid seeing the problem.  Getting better bulbs would help more.  
 
But if you call they'll confirm whether something has been tested and mention the results.

 

[pete_c]

Yes here for my first second generation Omni Pro 2 installation I wanted to bench test it and thinking how easy it would be shifted over the 24VAC power supply leads one over and the board went up in smoke.  HAI replaced it right away. 
 
There are many examples here on the Cocoontech forum provided by many DIY folks.  There are also professional folks here that do this stuff for a living and always help out here.
 
Here the Omni Pro panels run the heatbeat of the home.  I seldom change any of the automation on the panels.  Homeseer is an addendum to the automation and uses the hardware wired sensors on the OmniPro panel for additional automation.

 

[LiTtLeJoE]

Yes here for my first second generation Omni Pro 2 installation I wanted to bench test it and thinking how easy it would be shifted over the 24VAC power supply leads one over and the board went up in smoke.  HAI replaced it right away. 
 
There are many examples here on the Cocoontech forum provided by many DIY folks.  There are also professional folks here that do this stuff for a living and always help out here.
 
Here the Omni Pro panels run the heatbeat of the home.  I seldom change any of the automation on the panels.  Homeseer is an addendum to the automation and uses the hardware wired sensors on the OmniPro panel for additional automation.

 
Thanks Pete! I think I'll stay with the Omni system for security. Are there any other systems you guys recommend? 
 

CALL and ASK Lutron directly if you have bulbs you'd like to use that aren't listed already. 
 
They don't list everything they've tested.  The unofficial reason they don't list everything they've tested is one of liability and not wanting to be antagonistic about products made by others.  It's kind of admirable, really, as they don't want to put "in print" just how horribly some stuff misbehaves.  Or how off-spec the items are compared to their maker's literature.  Lighting dimming ranges are VERY sloppy for a lot of bulbs. 

Lutron sells LED fixtures that will genuinely drop to 1% of measurable light.  Almost NO other vendor can make that claim.  Likewise color reproduction (CRI).  Lots of junk has horrible problems with color (and I'm talking color reflected by white light, not RGB as that's a whole other train wreck).  This is also why Lutron dimmers have a top/bottom cut-off range for dimming.  No sense dropping dimming down below what a bulb can perform.  Bracketing the trim allows the user to think they're dimming, but the circuit is trimmed to avoid problems.  Try dimming to 1% on a bulb that can't go lower than 20% and you'll see flickering.  This way you can bump up the threshold and avoid seeing the problem.  Getting better bulbs would help more.  
 
But if you call they'll confirm whether something has been tested and mention the results.

 
I never considered using Lutron fixtures. I incorrectly assumed there would be little benefit over something that costs half as much. Now I know better... It actually makes sense though. If I'm going to invest in dimmers I might as well get fixtures that are capable of dimming to full compacity.
 
 

I'd like to think this forum (and AVSforum) are two of the best resources online for sage and sobering advice regarding the Wife Acceptance Factor.  It's not just me.  Pete here (among others) can also testify to having a lifetime of battle scars from automation stuff.  

One of the best pieces of advice to take is "learn from the mistakes of others".  

That and SHARE when you make mistakes.  Because most of us would gladly like to learn BEFORE we go and make the same mistakes ourselves.  Search engines are a wonderful thing.  "Thing I'm trying to do" and "error"  or "problem" are the BEST for untangling frustration.  You kids today, you have no idea how hit-and-miss it used to be with pre-Internet stuff like X-10...

I mean, success stories are great too, don't get me wrong.  But sometimes horror stories help a LOT more.  

 
I already planned to document the install for posterity and ease of troubleshooting, but never considered documenting my failures. I'll be sure to throw up a post here when I inevitably do something stupid so others can learn from my mistakes. Seems like the best way to pay forward all the helpful information and advice you guys have been kind enough to give me...   
 
Admittedly, I depend on the Googlizer far too much and in some cases it would probably be faster to pick up the damn phone and call someone 
 

Here have an Omni Pro 2 (X2).  Like the footprint size.  
 
With the Omni Pro 2 everything is already on the main board mostly and with the Elk M1 it is very modular and you can go baby steps with it.
 
I would maybe entertain installing the panel yourself whatever panel you choose.  Most of the work involved is in cabling to the panel. 
 
Setting it up with an alarm company is the easy part and very reasonable in price if you do it yourself.
 
Here most of my hardware is bare metal a la carte.  I have built a few combo servers for HA peers NAS-HA software - CCTV et al.

 
As you pointed out, the wiring will be the most challenging bit. I will probably hire a professional to do that, but I will definitely install the omni board myself. I still need to do my research on the types and quantities of wiring I will need... 

 

[pete_c]

On one new home build the contractor subcontracted a local alarm company to wire the home for security.   I changed the location of the originally chosen wiring closet for the alarm and had the contractor build an autonomous closet in a closet in the center of the home. Alarm company wired every window and door and for PIRs, keypads et al in the house (elevated beach house).


I asked the contractor how much he would charge me to do some more low voltage wiring and it was a bit much such that I requested 2-3 days and added ethernet cable (for network and audio)  and speaker cables for a zoned audio system before the drywall installation using mudplates for the LV termination points. (this was a bit low on the WAF). I called the alarm company post build for a quote for installation of an alarm panel and terminating the wires.   Quote was around $3000.  Purchased an OmniPro 2 panel and a few accessories for it for much less than $3000 at the time.

 

[batwater]

BlueIris is a whole other universe of complexities.  My advice is DO NOT attempt to jam multiple services onto one computer.  Trust me on this.  You want your automation stuff to be STABLE.  Not prone to the whims of updates to ancillary bits not directly related to the HA software itself.  BI can gobble enormous amounts of CPU and storage, give it the box your situation requires and leave HA running on another, wholly separate, piece of hardware.

Sure, at some point, it "ought to be possible" to run a lot of things all on one box.  Yeah, well, that nirvana ain't here yet.  Some folks get close but if/when it bites you the hit you take for reliability is not worth it.  The WAF rules all.  
 
That and when selecting in-wall dimmers, be sure to cross-reference the dimmer against your selected LED units.  Not all LEDs are created equal and some are notoriously unreliable when it comes to dimming.  It's not the dimmers that cause the problems, it's crappy bulbs.  Trouble is there's no standardized documentation or requirements for LEDs to make it easy to figure it out.  

 
+1 on the advise to separate out BlueIris!  2 primary factors: 1) CPU load of IP cameras / motion detection 2) overlap on web ports (can be configured to be different but that adds complexity).  I have chosen to have a 1 - 1 computer to function implementation on my key infrastructure components, HA Server, Security Cameras, etc.
 
#1 is a function of how many cameras you are going to install. I have 5 IP cameras ranging in resolution from 3mp to 8mp (just 1) and 8 analog cameras running through a high end video capture card.  CPU (Intel i5-6500 @ 3.2GHz) runs between 50 - 60% on average and memory consumption averages 8GB. BlueIris is set up to buffer 30 seconds on each camera so that if motion is triggered I get the 30 seconds prior to the trigger as a part of the recording.
 
You don't want anything to impact your HA server's ability to do it's job, the worst case is WAF is negatively affected and you end up in the dog house because something didn't work or responded too slow.
 
The other guiding principal I operate under resulting in very high WAF is the independence of the systems from the automation server to function should the server not be available. I cannot emphasize this enough. Lighting, HVAC, Media, security, etc, all can work stand alone.
 
The analogy I like to use is that the home automation server (in my case CQC) is the mortar to the bricks (which are the things I'm controlling / interfacing to)

-Ben

 

[pete_c]

Here always used ZM on Linux for CCTV.  Early days used an 8 port / 8 chip video card with it.  It was always on it's own dedicated computer.
 
When migrating to first IP cameras (SD) removed the video card and went to using Axis servers.  Over the years have been migrating to HD IP cameras.
 
First testing was purchasing HD IP camera boards (2-3 stack) and installing them in new IPXX outdoor dome cameras.  (metal with heaters inside).
 
Over the years have converted over to using POE IP HD cameras.  In the process of converting Optex combo cameras over to HD IP cameras from pure analog.
 
Today using HD IP cameras you need the CPU processing power to do multiple streams  and captures with any software (Linux or Windows).

I would recommend using Windows server over Windows 10 for running Blue Iris. That is a personal opinion based on my personal experience testing Windows 10 versus Windows 7 and Windows server for automation stuff.

Using Linux server is even better if you want to run software in Linux.
 
I do and do not utilize video algothrythms for motion outdoors.  Primary base for outdoor motion  / CCTV stuff though is in sensors.  (wired PIR, under the driveway)

Finally after many years IP HD cameras are standardizing which is a good thing. Personally here like cameras that can stream RTSP and MJPEG. Now the cameras of most manufacturers using common protocals which helps a bunch with software CCTV.

 

[wkearney99]

I know enough about BI to know there's never enough CPU or bandwidth, or storage!  My advice is if at all possible, dedicate a machine to it.  Or, more importantly, don't use your home automation machine for anything else that might require updating, rebooting or major reconfiguring.  Yes, the CPU and resource load of most automation tasks is pretty lightweight and could certainly run on "spare cycles" on a more powerful box.  Trouble is, home automation stuff needs to be dependable and operate immediately.  No delays, no interruptions or hiccups.  As others are saying, it's all about reliability, dependability, predictability and controlling expectations.  That's hard enough to do even with good software and proper setup.  Trying and shoe-horn it in with other stuff and something's going to go wrong.
 
Now, eventually, it might become practical to cobble it all together.  But, honestly, with how cheap the machines are these days and how little power they require... why bother?

 

[wkearney99]

I never considered using Lutron fixtures. I incorrectly assumed there would be little benefit over something that costs half as much. Now I know better... It actually makes sense though. If I'm going to invest in dimmers I might as well get fixtures that are capable of dimming to full compacity.
 
I already planned to document the install for posterity and ease of troubleshooting, but never considered documenting my failures. I'll be sure to throw up a post here when I inevitably do something stupid so others can learn from my mistakes. Seems like the best way to pay forward all the helpful information and advice you guys have been kind enough to give me...   
 
Admittedly, I depend on the Googlizer far too much and in some cases it would probably be faster to pick up the damn phone and call someone 

As you pointed out, the wiring will be the most challenging bit. I will probably hire a professional to do that, but I will definitely install the omni board myself. I still need to do my research on the types and quantities of wiring I will need... 

 
I didn't say you have to get Lutron fixtures.  I've seen them and they are indeed quite nice.  But they're SPENDY.  Too rich for my blood.

What's important is try to use known-compatible LEDs and dimmers.  If at all possible stick with the recommendations.  Getting a "full range" of dimming really isn't all that important.  Nor is the CRI unless you're talking about an artist's space.  For most normal people and typical household tasks it won't matter.

What's important is getting a decent range with predictable behavior.  That and not over or under-illuminating your space.  This is why I always recommend having a lighting consultant participate in the design process AND do a walk-through during the initial closing-in phase of construction.  
 
LEDs, generally, put out less light that incandescents.  This is important when you're considering placement of ceiling cans.  What might have worked well with, say, four 6" incandescents might be better served with six 4" LED units.  It's not just about total light output but it's also about the shape of the light being down-cast.  Oy, it still makes my head hurt taking all that into account when we built the house.

 

[batwater]

For what it's worth, there is an article from Pocketables about Blue Iris - Building your own NVR using blue iris

 

[upstatemike]

Nice article but I am still struggling with finding hardware I can afford that I am confident can run Blue Iris. Following advice from this forum and others I have been looking at refurbished business class desktop PCs and am not really finding the bargains on Intel full processor power (not limited energy saver "T" etc versions) with 8G Ram SSD boot and mechanical hard drive for a weeks worth of video as recommended.
 
My existing setup has 6 ONVIF cameras running at 1920X1080 15fps going to BI3 on a dedicated AMD processor laptop that is constantly pegged at 99% utilization even after making all the tweaks to BI to conserve CPU. My goal is to get to something that can support 8-12 cameras running at 30fps at a decently high resolution, (I don't need 4K for security cameras but I do want decent detail)
 
I have a dedicated screen at my desk with all cameras tiled to display live video running 24/7 so the PC needs to be able to process a lot of video data if I scale up to 12 cameras. The article seems to indicate that you can easily have a setup with 20 or more camera with Blue Iris but when you extrapolate the CPU required to do that it looks like you either need a nitrogen cooled supercomputer or you have to slash video quality back to 20 year old standards that make you wonder why they even bother to sell Megapixel cameras if there is no practical way to monitor them.
 
Amcrest makes NVRs that can (allegedly) view and record 16 cameras at full 8 Megapixel resolution for between $200 and $300. I'm just not seeing where I can match that buying Blue Iris 4 and a suitable PC be it new or refurbished. What am I missing? 

 

[wkearney99]

Good, fast, cheap... pick two.  It's the age-old rule for, well, everything.  

The myth is "need" to monitor any significant quantity of cameras.  Motion sensing and proper camera field of view work wonders for reducing wasted effort.  Likewise "decent" detail.  You have to ask just what is it you think you'll gain by having higher resolutions?  Because by the time you spend enough money and dedicated enough resources you'll find, much like family slideshows of old, the video never gets used.

There's a significant risk of getting caught up in wanting 'everything' and ending up with a whole lot of disparate stuff that never really gets one WAF-approved function down pat.

But at this point I'd venture the thread is probably wandering far beyond the CQC/HS topic.  Perhaps time to start a camera/BI specific one and let the conversation pick up from there?