Transitioning from X10, advice?

[bdeshazer]

So I had another Smarthome X10 KeypadLinc (12073WW) fail over the holidays and with the lack of replacement availability and the problems being reported about the X10 company I feel that it is finally time for me to start moving to an alternate technology.

I'm a LONG-time (20+ years) user of X10 for home automation, having used it in my previous home and my current ~3000sqft home. Using a combination of plug-in filters and a dryer-outlet active coupler X10 has worked extremely reliably for me, controlling a variety of lights and appliances (~60 over 4 housecodes) as well as using an additional fifth housecode for triggering macros.

I use a combination of an Omni IIe and a linux server running an older, highly-customized version of Misterhouse for controlling everything. Each of these has it's own X10 interface to the powerline, and I use a W800RF32A connected to a serial port on the linux server for the wireless control. The wireless is used for the X10 security sensors (door/window and motion) and a few palmpad remotes.

I use plug-in lamp and appliance modules, both the "regular" ones available from X10/X10pro as well as some of the Smarthome modules (I think a couple might even actually be Insteon modules with X10 addresses assigned). I also use some wire-in X10 wall outlets for various tasks and some wire-in inline appliance modules for controlling ceiling fans. Finally I have a variety of X10 wall switches, including a few 3-way switches and several 6 and 8-button KeypadLincs that haven't failed yet.

With so many devices (plus some I'd like to add control to) I'll need to do a gradual transition to whatever choice I make for budget reasons, so I'd like to be able to run X10 plus the new technology in parallel for a while, ideally with continued control by both the MH server and the Omni IIe.

My main options appear to be Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave. I will state that up-front I am pre-disposed to UPB. I signed up at the beginning to be a developer for Insteon, but they didn't really do anything with the developer network for months (a year+?) at the start and I gave up on that idea, and their immediate killing of their X10 product line to push people towards their new (and incomplete) Insteon line left me in the position I'm in now. With it's X10 compatibility, Insteon would probably be the easiest to transition to though.

Z-Wave is also not at the top of my list because as I understand it is strictly a wireless technology, and I guess I'm old-school enough that I still prefer wired solutions, even though I know in my head that the wireless is probably just as reliable (if not more so) as the powerline protocols. With 802.11, cell phones, etc. I guess I'd just like to stick with a wired technology for home automation.

This seems to leave me leaning towards UPB, with my questions/concerns being price and availability of replacement devices (outlets, in-line devices, wireless). I'll admit that I need to do some more research/planning into what is available and what I'd need to move to UPB, but I thought before I really dove into that I would post here and see what the communities thoughts/advice might be.

At this point I could probably be talked into any of the technologies, putting aside my above prejudices if a strong enough case is made.

Oh, I'm very much a DIYer in case it isn't obvious, and all my switches have neutrals in them.

All thoughts/responses appreciated, I tried to provide as much info as possible up-front which is why this is so long, but I'll answer any additional questions you might have.

Thanks!

 

[tmbrown97]

I like UPB a lot - I used simply-automated brand, and there's a detailed write-up about it in my signature. I haven't used Z-wave, but I can't help but feel more comfortable with UPB - probably because I grew up with X10 as well.

I saw you also already have a W800RF32 - I use one as well in my install through an intermediary (elve) to control lights via X10RF keychains remotes, slimfire remotes, and motion detectors. I've been pretty happy with the whole install.

 

[Mr Spock]

Work2Play's write up on UPB is great. Give it a read and I think it will help you will make your decision. For my new home I'm planning (early 2013) my only question is if I will go with gen1 or gen2 UPB products. Certain manufacturers make one or the other, seemingly mostly due to patent/royalty issues.

I was bit badly by the Smarthome microswitch problem from their 2003-2006 era switchlincs. I ended up repairing all my switchlincs and even wrote up a how-to here on how to repair them. All my keypadlincs also died, but repairing them is not so easy. After opening them up and seeing the construction, as well as having so many die on me, I swore off Smarthome products. IMO they are not designed for long term reliability and getting into a sole-source product is just not a good idea.

Good luck in your choice.

 

[bdeshazer]

Thanks for the input so far. I had actually read Work2Play's write-up here previously and agree it is a great source of info.

My problem with the KeypadLincs is that they stop communicating via X10... won't send commands and will not respond to commands targeted to them, including reprogramming. I've had four of them do this over the last couple of years now, really annoying. Local load control continues to operate fine. I suppose I should tear one apart just on the off chance it's something simple that is failing.

I can research this myself a bit, but I'll go ahead and ask here... can an Omni IIe control X10 and UPB simultaneously? One big concern is being able to transition gradually and not have to make the move all at once. By careful planning (which will be needed anyway) I could probably have the Omni send messages to the MH linux server when a UPB device needed to be controlled, but I'd rather avoid kludges like that if possible.

 

[oberkc]

getting into a sole-source product is just not a good idea.

I'll bet there are a bunch of apple fans around here that would disagree with such a statement. But smarthome is not apple.

Say what you want about insteon, I think there is a strong argument that it is the most pain-free transition from X-10. Fortunately, I have not run across the problems many have spoken about. Yet. We will see. I do admit to wondering how long it will be before I start to see device failure. Devices like these (whether insteon or UPB or z-wave) simply CANNOT last as long as my previous dumb switches (or can they?).

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm sure we'll see failures some day... nearly all electronics fail eventually! But, I'm going on about 5 years now of using UPB - and at almost 2 years in the current house with over 60 switches, no issues worth griping about.

Unfortunately I can't answer regarding the Omni - I use Elk, and I know it can do it - as long as you respect the limited number of lighting spaces and don't have any overlap (It's designed around X10's house codes, so UPB just sits on top of those same codes - actually making the transition even simpler). That may require a specific post in the HAI subforum - that one gets monitored more closely by HAI.

 

[picta]

I do admit to wondering how long it will be before I start to see device failure. Devices like these (whether insteon or UPB or z-wave) simply CANNOT last as long as my previous dumb switches (or can they?).

From my experience with Insteon devices the average life time is one year, maximum has been 2.5. I have spent thousands of dollars and lots of hours on those devices between 2002 and 2007 until I have given all up and switched to Centralite (no issues since). I have also been reading various HA boards over the last ten years and my observation is that UPB owners mostly praise the system and Insteon devices get a lot of posts about various issues. It may have become better lately, but once you get a bad taste for something it's hard to wish to try it again.

 

[picta]

You can use both X10 and UPB with HAI, upb PIM will tie up one serial port and X10 interface has its own jack. Then you will configure the house-codes as either Standard (x10) or UPB. I would try to keep each technology on a separate phase if possible.

 

[oberkc]

From my experience with Insteon devices the average life time is one year, maximum has been 2.5.

Mine is certainly better than this. I have devices ranging from over three years to about a month. I have seen one infant mortality type failure and one induced failure. No trends so far that I can detect.

It may have become better lately, but once you get a bad taste for something it's hard to wish to try it again.

I understand. I have not purchased a GM product since my first.

It's designed around X10's house codes, so UPB just sits on top of those same codes - actually making the transition even simpler

I have no doubt that UPB and X-10 can peacefully coexist. Through the proper controller, they can even be set up to respond to each other. However, the ability of X-10 devices to directly control insteon and vice versa simply makes mixing devices nearly seamless, requiring no extra controller if not otherwise needed. In my mind, it is this ability to mix and match X-10 and insteon that wins the battle of transitions.

 

[bdeshazer]

You can use both X10 and UPB with HAI, upb PIM will tie up one serial port and X10 interface has its own jack. Then you will configure the house-codes as either Standard (x10) or UPB.

Ahh, excellent, I hoped that this would be the case!

I would try to keep each technology on a separate phase if possible.

I doubt that this is going to be possible. Does your reasoning have something to do with the repeaters being used or possible collisions causing delays/retransmits, etc.? I haven't investigated how UPB works, is it a send-bits-on-zero-crossing protocol similar to X10?

 

[bdeshazer]

However, the ability of X-10 devices to directly control insteon and vice versa simply makes mixing devices nearly seamless, requiring no extra controller if not otherwise needed. In my mind, it is this ability to mix and match X-10 and insteon that wins the battle of transitions.

This is a probably the strongest argument for Insteon in my mind, I just doubt it is enough to overcome my prior experiences with both Smarthome and Insteon...

 

[picta]

Ahh, excellent, I hoped that this would be the case!



I doubt that this is going to be possible. Does your reasoning have something to do with the repeaters being used or possible collisions causing delays/retransmits, etc.? I haven't investigated how UPB works, is it a send-bits-on-zero-crossing protocol similar to X10?

My reasoning is if you can isolate the two networks, there will be less chance of interference, but you may find that this is not a concern. The only way to know is to give it a try.

 

[apostolakisl]

Well if you can get x10 to work you can get anything to work!

I have Insteon. I had about 30 or 40 switches that were old Insteon with the paddle issue. SH replaced them all and I now have 83 total switches/KPL's. Most of these are about 2 years old now. I have not had failures since.

I also have a handful of x10 devices that I pull out at Christmas time. They play very well with Insteon. They are up and running right now. I also have a few x10 motion detectors that work perfectly with the Insteon switch they are programmed to control and don't have issues.

So, are SH Insteon products now good for 20 years? I don't know. But it is looking good right now.

UPB vs Insteon.

Cost: Insteon wins. Probably half the price or better depending on the specifics.
Reliability of PLC: For you. . . tie. UPB would win in general, but you have x10 working so Insteon will for sure.
Reliability of Product: UPB wins. But past 2 years have been good with Insteon.
Interoperbility with Security and Such: Probably a tie.
Insteon has ISY, which will solve anything you don't like about Insteon. You have to love ISY, they are the hardest working best customer service company I have ever seen in my life.

 

[kwilcox]

You need to find a good automation platform that can bridge between the protocols. This allows you to migrate from X10 to other without having to do a mass forklift upgrade. I'm in the process of moving my X10 devices to UPB/Insteon currently. I run HCA which can talk X10, UPB and Insteon and will bridge seamlessly between any of them. The process for me has been pretty painless. I highly recommend that you find a multi-protocol automation controller to replace your misterhouse implemenation.

Currently in my house, UPB runs all my lightswitches and many modules. I have some Insteon lamp modules. I mostly use X10 for wireless connectivity to hawkeye sensors via my W800RF32. I will continue to use UPB for all switches due to SAI's professional build quality. My Insteon inventory will primiarily be used to implement unusuual automation applications because there are a lot of Insteon modules that support non-traditional automation (ie: doorlock interfaces, IR transmitters etc). HCA's touchscreen interface also supports mobile and tablet devices which I'm just starting to exploit.


I use a SAI USB PIM, an Insteon 2414U (both plugged into the same outlet) and a W800RF32.

 

[Mr Spock]

Some more details of my Smarthome/Switchlinc experiences if anyone cares.

My first Switchlincs were installed around 2000 sometime and were pre-Insteon (X10 only). There were 4 of them and all 4 are still going strong. One is in a high traffic area and probably has been switched over 5 times a day everyday. These 4 have been flawless.

Based on that experience I decided to do my whole house with Switchlincs (SW238x series) and Keypadlincs (12074W) in 2003-2005. These were different models, they had come out with the Insteon design, but I just used them for X10. I installed about 20 of the Switchlincs and 4 of the Keypadlincs. Within a year two of the newer Switchlincs died of non-microswitch problems. Smarthome honored the warranty and replaced them. Then around the 3+ year mark some of the Switchlincs started the microswitch problem. They were out of warranty and at first I did not know this was a serious problem. I replaced the first two on my own $.

Then the around 2008 the microswitch problem became an avalanche. I went to the web and found out what was going on. I contacted Smarthome and found out that my series of Switchlincs were not covered by the warranty they had extended for this problem. They thought my series were problem free. I begged to differ, but they would not cover them. By the end of the year I had about 5 more Switchlincs with the microswitch problem. WAF (girlfriend really) was hitting rock bottom.

So I got a bunch of replacement microswitches from DigiKey and replaced all 20 of the "newer" Switchlincs. All of these are still working fine years later. The original 4 are untouched.

My first Keypadlinc died around the 4 year mark. By the 6 year mark all 4 were dead of what appears on the surface to be the same problem. Looks like something in the power supply but I've not tried to dig into it.