C
chucklyons
Guest
wasn't the PPC an ARM processor?
Premise Windows 8 RT Surface tablet and the automation browser
- Thread starter etc6849
- Start date
Motorola Premise
We've all probably had a pocket pc with an xscale processor... And, Intel xscale processors were Armv5 based: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XScale
That's why I'm mad about MS locking something down that wasn't locked down before. Honestly, all the reasons for this that I've heard sound flimsy at best; MS is only doing it to make more money by forcing you to download programs from their store (of which they get a percentage).
It's also not free to develop on the Windows RT platform as far as I know like it is for Android. That's not going to discourage developers though, just DIY folks who want to learn. I have no experience using an SDK, but was able to download all the FREE tools necessary and developed an Android app after watching a few youtube tutorials and reading.
That's why I'm mad about MS locking something down that wasn't locked down before. Honestly, all the reasons for this that I've heard sound flimsy at best; MS is only doing it to make more money by forcing you to download programs from their store (of which they get a percentage).
It's also not free to develop on the Windows RT platform as far as I know like it is for Android. That's not going to discourage developers though, just DIY folks who want to learn. I have no experience using an SDK, but was able to download all the FREE tools necessary and developed an Android app after watching a few youtube tutorials and reading.
etc6849,
Your example falls down due to the fact that Pocket PC apps were required to run on the XScale processors. No Windows x86 apps ran on the Pocket PC or any Windows Phone or Windows Mobile.
A comparison would be the Intel Itanium server chips that could only run x86/x64 apps via emulation, which was definitely not as fast. Alternative was to compile apps specifically for Itanium but the initial compilers were slow for apps that weren't purpose built as Itanium apps.
I see three issues with running x86/x64 apps on ARM via emulation; performance, battery life, and legacy issues (viruses/bad code). Microsoft Office for RT was recompiled specifically for the ARM processors. Instead of developing a legacy compiler (to convert x86 to ARM) that might not perform well in all situations, MS decided to cut the cord and develop a new development paradigm for Windows 8 RT.
At some point you have to move forward. Apple did it when they moved to the Intel platform and a lot of people complained then too so I guess it is only natural. You can't please everyone, which has actually been one of Microsoft's problems in trying to always keep everyone happy. I'm not satisfied with RT's limitations either but I'm a power user and so Pro makes the most sense for me anyway.
Regarding the cost of development, as much as Microsoft wants and needs developers, I can only guess they are trying to put a barrier to entry so that they don't get little Johnny's (and Mikey's and Susie's, etc.) first little crappy app. But I don't disagree with you as having a cost will also dissuade talented developers and the Windows App Store definitely needs all the QUALITY apps it can get.
David
Your example falls down due to the fact that Pocket PC apps were required to run on the XScale processors. No Windows x86 apps ran on the Pocket PC or any Windows Phone or Windows Mobile.
A comparison would be the Intel Itanium server chips that could only run x86/x64 apps via emulation, which was definitely not as fast. Alternative was to compile apps specifically for Itanium but the initial compilers were slow for apps that weren't purpose built as Itanium apps.
I see three issues with running x86/x64 apps on ARM via emulation; performance, battery life, and legacy issues (viruses/bad code). Microsoft Office for RT was recompiled specifically for the ARM processors. Instead of developing a legacy compiler (to convert x86 to ARM) that might not perform well in all situations, MS decided to cut the cord and develop a new development paradigm for Windows 8 RT.
At some point you have to move forward. Apple did it when they moved to the Intel platform and a lot of people complained then too so I guess it is only natural. You can't please everyone, which has actually been one of Microsoft's problems in trying to always keep everyone happy. I'm not satisfied with RT's limitations either but I'm a power user and so Pro makes the most sense for me anyway.
Regarding the cost of development, as much as Microsoft wants and needs developers, I can only guess they are trying to put a barrier to entry so that they don't get little Johnny's (and Mikey's and Susie's, etc.) first little crappy app. But I don't disagree with you as having a cost will also dissuade talented developers and the Windows App Store definitely needs all the QUALITY apps it can get.
David
WiredRight
New Member
etc6849,
Not trying to be combative here, but virtually everything you've posted about Win8 is wrong or misinformed. You should think of this way: Surface with RT is to Win8 as iOS is to OSX. It's a slimmed down version of the Windows OS that shares similarities, but is a subset of the parent OS.
- Code written to run on Intel processors doesn't run on ARM processors, which is what WinRT runs on. Your activeX control also won't run on a mac or the OS that runs your car or blender. This isn't a Microsoft greed thing, it's just a different piece of hardware with a different OS on it. MS does have a bit of work to do educating consumers on the RT versus Win 8 difference, but I cant imagine too many people are going to drop $500 without doing a little investigation in to what they're buying.
- We'll see if the RT is a good business decision for MS, but it satisfies the same demand that other tablets do - run micro apps and offer compact web and Internet access for a few hundred bucks. I'm betting that the demand is there, and that these tablets will sell well.
- Media Center is an optional add-on for Windows 8, not the WinRT. If you're using it for a 10 foot experience, I'm not sure why you'd want to run it on a tablet anyway. If you were hoping to have a touch interface to your media on a tablet, then all the functionality you are looking for is baked in, albeit in different apps and not in Media Center. If you really must have Media Center on a tablet, either buy a third party tablet running Windows 8 or wait for the Surface Pro to come out at EOY, which will run Windows 8 Pro on the surface hardware. Oh, and as much as I like Media Center, I doubt it's usage is in the millions.
- There will be an 'advanced option' that will allow users to install their own apps. It's called Surface Pro and it will launch at the end of the year. This is the standard Intel architecture with an SSD rather than flash memory, and all those things you could do with your Windows 7/8 laptop/desktop will be available. Or you could simply buy third party hardware from HP, Dell, Acer, and others: http://www.engadget.com/tag/windows+8+tablet/
- App developers can support themselves in two basic ways - they can charge for the app or they can embed ads. If you've used apps in Android, iOS, or Windows Phone you've already been exposed to these options. Again, WinRT is a tablet OS, not a full Windows OS, so this is to be expected. The trade-off is that over time you get a ton of different app options. I just searched for 'weather' in the Windows 8 app store and got 320 options (not all of which are weather-centric, mind you). if you have an Xbox, go have a look there as well - you'll see ad tiles in just about every section. Oh, and have a look around this page right now. Ads are part of the computing experience, that's jus the way it is.
I think if you revisit the Surface and Windows 8 again with the mindset that RT is a tablet OS for mini apps and web browsing, while Windows 8 is the next version of the full OS you are used to, you'll probably come away a lot less disappointed and may even be happy that you now have additional computing options from MS. I've had a Surface from launch and I absolutely love it. There's not much I have to go back to my Windows 8 desktop for anymore, but it's there if I need it.
Not trying to be combative here, but virtually everything you've posted about Win8 is wrong or misinformed. You should think of this way: Surface with RT is to Win8 as iOS is to OSX. It's a slimmed down version of the Windows OS that shares similarities, but is a subset of the parent OS.
- Code written to run on Intel processors doesn't run on ARM processors, which is what WinRT runs on. Your activeX control also won't run on a mac or the OS that runs your car or blender. This isn't a Microsoft greed thing, it's just a different piece of hardware with a different OS on it. MS does have a bit of work to do educating consumers on the RT versus Win 8 difference, but I cant imagine too many people are going to drop $500 without doing a little investigation in to what they're buying.
- We'll see if the RT is a good business decision for MS, but it satisfies the same demand that other tablets do - run micro apps and offer compact web and Internet access for a few hundred bucks. I'm betting that the demand is there, and that these tablets will sell well.
- Media Center is an optional add-on for Windows 8, not the WinRT. If you're using it for a 10 foot experience, I'm not sure why you'd want to run it on a tablet anyway. If you were hoping to have a touch interface to your media on a tablet, then all the functionality you are looking for is baked in, albeit in different apps and not in Media Center. If you really must have Media Center on a tablet, either buy a third party tablet running Windows 8 or wait for the Surface Pro to come out at EOY, which will run Windows 8 Pro on the surface hardware. Oh, and as much as I like Media Center, I doubt it's usage is in the millions.
- There will be an 'advanced option' that will allow users to install their own apps. It's called Surface Pro and it will launch at the end of the year. This is the standard Intel architecture with an SSD rather than flash memory, and all those things you could do with your Windows 7/8 laptop/desktop will be available. Or you could simply buy third party hardware from HP, Dell, Acer, and others: http://www.engadget.com/tag/windows+8+tablet/
- App developers can support themselves in two basic ways - they can charge for the app or they can embed ads. If you've used apps in Android, iOS, or Windows Phone you've already been exposed to these options. Again, WinRT is a tablet OS, not a full Windows OS, so this is to be expected. The trade-off is that over time you get a ton of different app options. I just searched for 'weather' in the Windows 8 app store and got 320 options (not all of which are weather-centric, mind you). if you have an Xbox, go have a look there as well - you'll see ad tiles in just about every section. Oh, and have a look around this page right now. Ads are part of the computing experience, that's jus the way it is.
I think if you revisit the Surface and Windows 8 again with the mindset that RT is a tablet OS for mini apps and web browsing, while Windows 8 is the next version of the full OS you are used to, you'll probably come away a lot less disappointed and may even be happy that you now have additional computing options from MS. I've had a Surface from launch and I absolutely love it. There's not much I have to go back to my Windows 8 desktop for anymore, but it's there if I need it.
I'm not misinformed at all... Perhaps you are misinformed as maybe you didn't read what I said?!?
1. Windows RT is not the first ARM based MS OS.
2. All prior MS ARM based OS's I've tried allowed me to install Premise's activex control that is compiled for several arm based WinCE variations.
3. I'm complaining about ads in the MS provided weather app that is preinstalled. I pay money for Windows, so what right does M$ have to stick ads in my face. I'm not talking about free apps that you can download, learn to read better before criticizing.
4. Cocoontech is free, so I have no problem looking at ads here. Same with the free android apps I use.
5. M$ could have given us an option to install our own apps (after you enable some advanced option), but got greedy by forcing RT users to download from their Windows Store. This is obvious as ALL previous M$ arm based OS's allowed users to install whatever they wanted. Google also allows this.
6. Just because Apple does it, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Android gives you debugging options so you CAN install your own apps. If you're a novice user and/or don't know the origin of an app, you would obviously never use this. Maybe if you weren't so misinformed you'd have known that.
7. I don't go on the Xbox dashboard as I have Media Center auto start. You've just given me a reason to craigslist the thing though.
8. There are millions of Media Center users and many of them wouldn't mind having a low power ARM tablet that works with it. They all are M$ products after all.
9. Apple and Google do not advertise their ARM based tablets as full featured operating systems. Only M$ does that and then purposely limits what I can do with it (for no apparent technical reason).
1. Windows RT is not the first ARM based MS OS.
2. All prior MS ARM based OS's I've tried allowed me to install Premise's activex control that is compiled for several arm based WinCE variations.
3. I'm complaining about ads in the MS provided weather app that is preinstalled. I pay money for Windows, so what right does M$ have to stick ads in my face. I'm not talking about free apps that you can download, learn to read better before criticizing.
4. Cocoontech is free, so I have no problem looking at ads here. Same with the free android apps I use.
5. M$ could have given us an option to install our own apps (after you enable some advanced option), but got greedy by forcing RT users to download from their Windows Store. This is obvious as ALL previous M$ arm based OS's allowed users to install whatever they wanted. Google also allows this.
6. Just because Apple does it, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Android gives you debugging options so you CAN install your own apps. If you're a novice user and/or don't know the origin of an app, you would obviously never use this. Maybe if you weren't so misinformed you'd have known that.
7. I don't go on the Xbox dashboard as I have Media Center auto start. You've just given me a reason to craigslist the thing though.
8. There are millions of Media Center users and many of them wouldn't mind having a low power ARM tablet that works with it. They all are M$ products after all.
9. Apple and Google do not advertise their ARM based tablets as full featured operating systems. Only M$ does that and then purposely limits what I can do with it (for no apparent technical reason).
WiredRight
New Member
Lol. Ok, etc. Just figured I'd try to help you out.. Keep fighting the good fight.
Sorry, your post is not helpful at all. All you do is state the obvious (iOS = RT (which is not entirely true, but whatever), x86 can't run on ARM, etc).
You fail to realize that Premise has activex controls designed for ARM processors and works fine on other Windows CE based platforms on ARM processors (Windows CE400, Windows CE.NET etc...).
I'm not trying to run an x86 program on an ARM processor, but apparently you think I'm that stupid and that everyone should share your over inflated opinion about a product that is purposely crippled unlike past ARM based Windows solutions (such as Windows CE now called Embedded Compact).
If you don't know anything about Premise, I fail to see the reason for your post other than you're telling me what I should like (e.g. a crippled platform).
You fail to realize that Premise has activex controls designed for ARM processors and works fine on other Windows CE based platforms on ARM processors (Windows CE400, Windows CE.NET etc...).
I'm not trying to run an x86 program on an ARM processor, but apparently you think I'm that stupid and that everyone should share your over inflated opinion about a product that is purposely crippled unlike past ARM based Windows solutions (such as Windows CE now called Embedded Compact).
If you don't know anything about Premise, I fail to see the reason for your post other than you're telling me what I should like (e.g. a crippled platform).
Windows 8 RT is so far getting good reviews with the main complaint being lack of Windows Store Apps and lack of being able to install existing desktop apps. However, Windows RT has a market but your (and my) usage does not fit that target market. Luckily, Microsoft has a solution for that in Windows 8 Pro tablets. And if you aren't happy with those options, you can stick with Windows 7, Mac, iOS, Android, Linux, or any of the other myriad options we have as consumers.
I understand your frustrations but we have no idea what design decisions were made and which design options were technically feasible. However, I'm pretty sure the decisions weren't meant to simply upset the customer, especially for the tablet market where Microsoft is currently in third place behind iPad and Android. And Microsft can't be greedy from a third place position.
David
I understand your frustrations but we have no idea what design decisions were made and which design options were technically feasible. However, I'm pretty sure the decisions weren't meant to simply upset the customer, especially for the tablet market where Microsoft is currently in third place behind iPad and Android. And Microsft can't be greedy from a third place position.
David
Thanks David!
My intent on the thread here is to highlight the lack of "Automation Browser" support due to the intentional crippling of Windows RT. The Automation Browser is an auto generated web page made by Premise that uses activex to allow for instant two-way feedback of device states. I'm not sure why so many felt the need to post in favor of Windows RT when they aren't even using Premise, but it's a free country, so folks can do what they want I guess.
That said, it's awesome that someone who works for MS would take the time to post on here (again). Unfortunately, unless the Surface Pro is under $600, I'm not going to buy it and I suspect most engineers/techies will feel the same. If folks at MS think we are willing to pay $300 more for freedoms that were offered on past Windows CE ARM based platforms, maybe they are out of touch with the market? Further, it remains to be seen if x86 processors can give the same battery life that ARM offers.
I've used Windows exclusively and I always enjoyed the freedom that came with it; being able to customize things how I want, install whatever browser I want, run programs I compile myself, etc... That's not to mention going to any flash site I want and have it work is nice too (RT restricts what sites I visit on purpose?!?). Further, no one except MS can create apps that run on RT's desktop (go figure).
If you're interested, here's a few more interesting discussions/articles on similar issues with MS locking things down:
Flash restrictions:
http://www.windowstablettv.com/windows-rt-tips/1294-add-microsoft-surface-flash-support-web-sites/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1961793
Third party browser restrictions:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57431236-92/microsoft-bans-firefox-on-arm-based-windows-mozilla-says/
There's also A LOT more results, just use google (oops, I mean bing).
My intent on the thread here is to highlight the lack of "Automation Browser" support due to the intentional crippling of Windows RT. The Automation Browser is an auto generated web page made by Premise that uses activex to allow for instant two-way feedback of device states. I'm not sure why so many felt the need to post in favor of Windows RT when they aren't even using Premise, but it's a free country, so folks can do what they want I guess.
That said, it's awesome that someone who works for MS would take the time to post on here (again). Unfortunately, unless the Surface Pro is under $600, I'm not going to buy it and I suspect most engineers/techies will feel the same. If folks at MS think we are willing to pay $300 more for freedoms that were offered on past Windows CE ARM based platforms, maybe they are out of touch with the market? Further, it remains to be seen if x86 processors can give the same battery life that ARM offers.
I've used Windows exclusively and I always enjoyed the freedom that came with it; being able to customize things how I want, install whatever browser I want, run programs I compile myself, etc... That's not to mention going to any flash site I want and have it work is nice too (RT restricts what sites I visit on purpose?!?). Further, no one except MS can create apps that run on RT's desktop (go figure).
If you're interested, here's a few more interesting discussions/articles on similar issues with MS locking things down:
Flash restrictions:
http://www.windowstablettv.com/windows-rt-tips/1294-add-microsoft-surface-flash-support-web-sites/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1961793
Third party browser restrictions:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57431236-92/microsoft-bans-firefox-on-arm-based-windows-mozilla-says/
There's also A LOT more results, just use google (oops, I mean bing).
Haha. I will say my comments are my own on my personal time since I am a consultant but not for home security or automation. 
Since I am interested in learning, I go to Forums --> New Posts so I read threads across many of the forums as I enjoy and am on this board to learn. Maybe educate some too if I can. So that is how I came across your thread and I thought it general enough to post although you are correct that I haven't used Premise but I am interested in it as I will likely pick a HA platform within the next 6 months.
Really one of my frustrations with Microsoft on releasing Windows 8 RT has been the lack of consumer education on the capabilities and limitations of Windows 8 RT, which I am glad that you are helping to educate users even though I don't agree with some of your stances. Namely your comments related to intentional and greed regarding the primary reasons Microsoft released a more locked down environment in Windows 8 RT. Frankly, the iPad and iPhone have been destroying Microsoft's previous offerings so I'm sure they wanted to release the most full featured environment they could. However, like it or not, the iPad was the direct competitor for the Windows 8 RT design team just as Infiniti tries to compete with the BMW 3-Series. And I'm sure one of the reasons for the locked down environment was due to how simple the iOS environment is so frankly, Apple contributed to the simplification of Windows 8 RT. So easy a caveman, er... Grandma can do it. Which is again why I say the Windows 8 RT is not the platform for me but the Windows 8 Pro will be. Regarding pricing, I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if the Windows 8 Surface Pro is right at or above $1000.
Suffice to say, I don't disagree with your comments and I'm glad we are educating the consumers so they choose the best product for them. I just slightly disagree with your tone, but I have my own frustrations with various consumer products that makes me wonder what the heck the designers/engineers/marketers were thinking.
Which brings us to tomorrow, Veteran's Day, as this former US Army soldier would like to thank all of the veterans that serve and have served in the US Armed Forces that have contributed to our freedom and ability to discuss topics such as this.
And I choose not to share my search affiliation...it's personal.
David
Since I am interested in learning, I go to Forums --> New Posts so I read threads across many of the forums as I enjoy and am on this board to learn. Maybe educate some too if I can. So that is how I came across your thread and I thought it general enough to post although you are correct that I haven't used Premise but I am interested in it as I will likely pick a HA platform within the next 6 months.
Really one of my frustrations with Microsoft on releasing Windows 8 RT has been the lack of consumer education on the capabilities and limitations of Windows 8 RT, which I am glad that you are helping to educate users even though I don't agree with some of your stances. Namely your comments related to intentional and greed regarding the primary reasons Microsoft released a more locked down environment in Windows 8 RT. Frankly, the iPad and iPhone have been destroying Microsoft's previous offerings so I'm sure they wanted to release the most full featured environment they could. However, like it or not, the iPad was the direct competitor for the Windows 8 RT design team just as Infiniti tries to compete with the BMW 3-Series. And I'm sure one of the reasons for the locked down environment was due to how simple the iOS environment is so frankly, Apple contributed to the simplification of Windows 8 RT. So easy a caveman, er... Grandma can do it.
Which is again why I say the Windows 8 RT is not the platform for me but the Windows 8 Pro will be. Regarding pricing, I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if the Windows 8 Surface Pro is right at or above $1000.Suffice to say, I don't disagree with your comments and I'm glad we are educating the consumers so they choose the best product for them. I just slightly disagree with your tone, but I have my own frustrations with various consumer products that makes me wonder what the heck the designers/engineers/marketers were thinking.
Which brings us to tomorrow, Veteran's Day, as this former US Army soldier would like to thank all of the veterans that serve and have served in the US Armed Forces that have contributed to our freedom and ability to discuss topics such as this.
And I choose not to share my search affiliation...it's personal.
David
By the way, Microsoft Surface RT sales are awesome ... or maybe not. It sure doesn’t help when the device is only sold at a few Microsoft stores across the nation. And I’ll tell you, I’ve been into a few Best Buys and Staples and their Windows 8 tablet/convertible presentation has been less than stellar.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/11/ballmer-says-microsoft-surface-sales-off-to-modest-start/
David
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/11/ballmer-says-microsoft-surface-sales-off-to-modest-start/
David
C
chucklyons
Guest
From one Vet to another - thanks for your service! And contributions ....(to the forum!)
I suspect in regards to Windows RT Microsoft has finally awoken to what Apple has done with the Ipad/Iphone and wants a piece of the pie. RT is either a testing of the waters or a straight jump to the beginning of the end of self installing any software by the end-user that hasn't originated from an online OEM(MS/Apple) store. The desire to get a % for every app sold is to enticing. It's also the end for piracy.
Microsoft has longed for a subscription based model and they are on their way. Heck it would't surprise me if sometime in the near future they will supply you with the device for free or at minimal cost, and we will pay a monthly fee to have, use, and have access to their online store. Of course we will have to buy the apps we want, and they of course will make a % as does apple.
Just food for thought.
Microsoft has longed for a subscription based model and they are on their way. Heck it would't surprise me if sometime in the near future they will supply you with the device for free or at minimal cost, and we will pay a monthly fee to have, use, and have access to their online store. Of course we will have to buy the apps we want, and they of course will make a % as does apple.
Just food for thought.
