Wiring Elk M1 + System Sensor RRS-MOD and 2W-MOD2
- Thread starter chrisexv6
- Start date
Yes it will trip the system, however the bigger issue is whatever is powering the loop in reversed state, if it's the M1, you'll pop a PTC. If it's a supply, you'll either pop a PTC or fuse, or if unlucky and using a non-tolerant unit, let out the magic smoke.
This failure is what I observed in testing the system. "yes it will" is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
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It's exactly what I said. It will trip the fire zone, however whatever power source that is feeding the reversing relay's reversed power source will get a dead short.....with the results I posted, again based on firsthand knowledge.
Not trying to :horse: , but figured an update is in order:
Ive offloaded most of the current draw to an aux power supply. The only things powered off the main board now are the databus items (Zone expander, XSP, M1KP and M1KP2) and the smoke setup (6 2WTA-B detectors + RRSMOD).
Unfortunately the issue still exists. I was hoping it was a current draw thing but seems thats not the case.
Im debating cutting over to 4 wire detectors instead.....but am concerned the source of the issue is the RRSMOD, which will still need to be used even with 4 wire detectors in place. For the life of me I still cant figure out why my system reacts so differently than others who have the same setup with no issues.
Ive offloaded most of the current draw to an aux power supply. The only things powered off the main board now are the databus items (Zone expander, XSP, M1KP and M1KP2) and the smoke setup (6 2WTA-B detectors + RRSMOD).
Unfortunately the issue still exists. I was hoping it was a current draw thing but seems thats not the case.
Im debating cutting over to 4 wire detectors instead.....but am concerned the source of the issue is the RRSMOD, which will still need to be used even with 4 wire detectors in place. For the life of me I still cant figure out why my system reacts so differently than others who have the same setup with no issues.
OK, now everything goes off at once...BUT for some reason when I went into the Reset Smoke Detectors section of the Elk menu, pressing the right arrow didnt start the reset. Actually had to power down the panel to get it to stop. Im guessing this is not normal
Do you have the rule:
WHENEVER ANY FIRE ALARM CUTS OFF, THEN TURN OUTPUT [3] OFF
^This is happening because you are still in Fire Alarm condition. Meaning your rule to turn on Output 3 is being re-activated regardless of time limit condition.
Yes, I have the correct rule(s) in place.
The "WHENEVER ANY FIRE ALARM CUTS OFF" rule is not firing, because Im not able to actually cut off the fire alarm. Its like the system and/or keypad are not seeing my inputs because its busy dealing with the fire alarm.
Elks tech support pretty much called it before I told them the symptoms: when the RRSMOD pulses, it disconnects from the panel just for a very short time. That disconnect is causing a Fire Trouble. Then when the RRSMOD pulses "back on", the alarms are still going (which is correct) so it goes into Fire mode. If you watch the event log, it fills with alternating Fire Trouble/Fire/Fire Trouble/Fire messages.
Slowing down the zone loop response time (which seems to be defining how long the zone needs to be disconnected before issuing a "Trouble" message) fixes it, Im thinking because the RRSMOD pulse is a certain amount of time, and making the loop response time LONGER than that pulse means by the time the M1 polls the zone, its already "reconnected" from the RRSMOD pulse.
Elk had two suggestions: the slower loop response time, or switch to 4 wire detectors since the signal portion of the detector is separate from the power portion. The RRSMOD would never really disconnect the zone completely in that case.
The only reason this is even bothering me is because there are people who have had it working without touching any other parameters. If Elk had given me a good explanation as to why MY setup needs a slower loop response time, then Id be happy.....but right now it seems more like voodoo than anything else. Also note that this is more of an annoyance issue than a safety issue.....the alarms set off just fine, and the RRSMOD handles getting them all in sync and temporal 3 coded. I just cant reliably turn them off while using system default values. Honestly, turning them off is the last thing Im worried about if they are going off, since most likely that means there is a fire somewhere in the house (barring me testing the system)
The "WHENEVER ANY FIRE ALARM CUTS OFF" rule is not firing, because Im not able to actually cut off the fire alarm. Its like the system and/or keypad are not seeing my inputs because its busy dealing with the fire alarm.
Elks tech support pretty much called it before I told them the symptoms: when the RRSMOD pulses, it disconnects from the panel just for a very short time. That disconnect is causing a Fire Trouble. Then when the RRSMOD pulses "back on", the alarms are still going (which is correct) so it goes into Fire mode. If you watch the event log, it fills with alternating Fire Trouble/Fire/Fire Trouble/Fire messages.
Slowing down the zone loop response time (which seems to be defining how long the zone needs to be disconnected before issuing a "Trouble" message) fixes it, Im thinking because the RRSMOD pulse is a certain amount of time, and making the loop response time LONGER than that pulse means by the time the M1 polls the zone, its already "reconnected" from the RRSMOD pulse.
Elk had two suggestions: the slower loop response time, or switch to 4 wire detectors since the signal portion of the detector is separate from the power portion. The RRSMOD would never really disconnect the zone completely in that case.
The only reason this is even bothering me is because there are people who have had it working without touching any other parameters. If Elk had given me a good explanation as to why MY setup needs a slower loop response time, then Id be happy.....but right now it seems more like voodoo than anything else. Also note that this is more of an annoyance issue than a safety issue.....the alarms set off just fine, and the RRSMOD handles getting them all in sync and temporal 3 coded. I just cant reliably turn them off while using system default values. Honestly, turning them off is the last thing Im worried about if they are going off, since most likely that means there is a fire somewhere in the house (barring me testing the system)
I find it strange that the databus is getting so saturated with messages during the fire alarm that you can't even enter any commands on the keypad.
Upon fire alarm, does pressing the star key " * " on any keypad do anything, namely silence the alarm?
It's interesting that in the Elk Installation Manual (p. 32) it says
"NOTE: Slow loop response shall NOT be used on Fire zones."
Don't know whether that's a UL or Elk requirement... and whether modifying the loop time will affect how zone definition 11 (Fire 24 hr 'Verified') will operate.
Upon fire alarm, does pressing the star key " * " on any keypad do anything, namely silence the alarm?
It's interesting that in the Elk Installation Manual (p. 32) it says
"NOTE: Slow loop response shall NOT be used on Fire zones."
Don't know whether that's a UL or Elk requirement... and whether modifying the loop time will affect how zone definition 11 (Fire 24 hr 'Verified') will operate.
Nope, Ive tried the star key before and after entering my disarm code, etc. If I hit it just right I can get the alarms to silence for a second or two then they go back on again.
I too saw the Note in the Elk manual. Im almost positive I tried it from the start....default loop response times and fast loop on the fire zone. Also tried slow loop with default timings as well. Neither worked.
Its interesting you mention Fire 24 hour verified....thats NOT the zone type Im using. Rather Im using zone type 10 (Fire Alarm). Wonder if changing to 11 would make a difference.
Maybe what's happening is that because you're unable to reset the offending smoke detector during the very brief moment when the RRS-MOD cycle is passing normal polarity power through the circuit, the Elk thinks it sees a NEW fire alarm (from the same detector) because the detector remains latched.
I don't have any experience with 2-wire smokes, but 4-wire smokes do work fine with the RRS-MOD for me.
Another thing to try: initiate the fire alarm from the keypad function button. This would rule out a latched detector.
I don't have any experience with 2-wire smokes, but 4-wire smokes do work fine with the RRS-MOD for me.
Another thing to try: initiate the fire alarm from the keypad function button. This would rule out a latched detector.
Well thats very interesting....I noticed your edit on trying to activate the fires from an F-key instead of from the actual detector.
And go figure....THAT allowed me to disarm the fire without issue. So it could be because the detector that was set-off during test is still latched?
At least it gives me some idea of what might be going on. But I still dont understand why others arent seeing it (unless they are only testing by setting off a fire from an F-key), or if there is some other rule Im not adding, or if somehow the latching/unlatching works differently on my detectors/RRSMOD than others (different hardware dates./revisions, perhaps?)
IVB
Senior Member
i'll crash this older thread instead of starting one or updating my old thread as this one has relevant info.
I've finally wired my Elk M1 / RRS-MOD / 2WMOD2 up, and am getting Fire Trouble at the keypad. I have 5 2WTA-B wired up. 2200 Ohm resistors in the 2WMOD2, 3900 at the end of the 2wire line. A walk test goes fine, all LEDs seem fine. But the Elk shows fire trouble, and I can't make it go away. Tried a reset smokes, nothing. I haven't done a test setting off the alarms as the wife is currently taking a nap, but I figured if the keypad shows Fire Trouble thats the first issue to resolve.
Anyone have any ideas?
I've finally wired my Elk M1 / RRS-MOD / 2WMOD2 up, and am getting Fire Trouble at the keypad. I have 5 2WTA-B wired up. 2200 Ohm resistors in the 2WMOD2, 3900 at the end of the 2wire line. A walk test goes fine, all LEDs seem fine. But the Elk shows fire trouble, and I can't make it go away. Tried a reset smokes, nothing. I haven't done a test setting off the alarms as the wife is currently taking a nap, but I figured if the keypad shows Fire Trouble thats the first issue to resolve.
Anyone have any ideas?
