Zigbee HA vs. Z Wave

[vc1234]

I concur the zigbee has better long-term potential.

I am not sure about that.  Zigbee has two major drawbacks in my opinion to be used successfully in the consumer market:
 
1. Incredible profile fragmentation.  For example, there's ZHA (Phillips) and ZLL(GE) to control lights. Both are "standard" profiles, but not interoperable.
A profile implementation is usually so heavy weight both with respect to the code and memory size that the standard xxx.15.4 part is insignificant in comparison. As an example, TI has 5 separate zigbee stacks one per each profile. So, for practical purposes one should rather treat zigbee as a collection of separate protocols: zigbee-zha, zigbee-zll, zigbee-sep, zigbee-zrc, etc since from the point of view of implementation/user each of them requires in most cases a separate z-stack and a separate hardware chip.
 
2. 2.4Ghz frequency which makes it inferior wrt wall penetration in comparison to RR2 and zwave.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Thanks everyone for their input.  I've been doing a lot of reading, googling, reading, etc.  Learned about ZWave going public.  Learned about the various Zigbee profiles.  Connected with the IoT folks within my company who also provided some good pointers.
 
I still have more research (hey, I was a research engineer most of my career....).  But the best I can say now is that I might need both ZWave and some form of Zigbee.  I'd like to get what data my Itron Openway smart electric meter can provide.  That speaks Zigbee SE...  ZWave, though not perfect, has much better penetration.  I'll be starting small (only a few control endpoints) so that should give Zigbee some time for improved adoption.
 
I also see two realms:  Production and Research.  Most likely ZWave hanging off my Elk M1G for Production.  And a DIY ZWave & Zigbee linux controller for the experiments.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here utilize both Z-Wave and Zigbee with my OmniPro 2 panel.   I have replicated the Z-Wave network over to Homeseer 3 Z-Wave.  I tinker and use it depending on my requirements.
 
Relating to Z-Wave I have two controllers here; one in the attic and one in the basement.  Zigbee is all in the basement.
 
You can purchase a Zigbee controller that fits on the GPIO ports of an RPi2.  Here do that with Z-Wave.  (stacked with an RTC under neath).

 

[Dean Roddey]

 I'll be starting small (only a few control endpoints) so that should give Zigbee some time for improved adoption.

 
Keep in mind that both are mesh networks, and do best when you have some minimal density of modules, since each one acts as a relay to route signals.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Keep in mind that both are mesh networks, and do best when you have some minimal density of modules, since each one acts as a relay to route signals.

Thanks for the comment.  I DO understand the 802.15.4 MAC/PHY and lower Zigbee layers.  I did a bit of Zigbee evaluation/research a few years ago, looking at a wearable voice appliance application.  So not only were we concerned with sparse nodes, but also nodes that moved around....

 

[macromark]

... I'll be starting small (only a few control endpoints) so that should give Zigbee some time for improved adoption.

It's been 14 years already.  Don't expect any sudden miracles!  There's no motivation for companies to make compatible products. The only reason compatibility exists in Z-wave is that it was an enforced standard from the start. As others have noted, even that isn't foolproof... but it's better than what exists int the Zigbee universe. 

 

[ano]

It's been 14 years already.  Don't expect any sudden miracles!  There's no motivation for companies to make compatible products. The only reason compatibility exists in Z-wave is that it was an enforced standard from the start. As others have noted, even that isn't foolproof... but it's better than what exists int the Zigbee universe. 

You do realize that in 2016, the Zigbee Alliance expects that 850 million Zigbee radios will be shipped THIS YEAR alone?  Last June the Z-wave Alliance announced 30 million Z-Wave devices were shipped TO DATE.  That is EVER. So its not true to say Zigbee devices aren't here. That is false.  You can say they a limited number used in consumer home automation area, but you can't say the Zigbee universe doesn't exist. 
 
So why?  We'll certainly numbers don't tell all. Its about marketing and promotion, and in some cases keeping competitors out.  Home automation still remains a limited pretty closed technology, with each company wanting you to buy their products in their ecosystem and no others.  In the end companies have to make profit from selling their products or there is not much motivation to sell them.  If some company spends $50M developing some controller and software, they want to make their money back.  Ideally they give the controller away for free, then make lots of money from the various devices that connect. You see this model over and over. If you can go out and buy someone elses client devices, and not theirs, that doesn't help their bottom line.  This same principal also keeps the home automation market small, with one ecosystem not bothering another. To date, home automation hasn't "happened" as a technology itself, it still has to rely on someone pushing it, and these companies want to make money.
 
Someday, maybe, there will be open source free (or near free) home automation controllers out there and then things will shift to the cheapest add-ons possible since a single company is no longer driving things. Do you think those cheapest devices will be Zigbee or Z-Wave?  We aren't there yet and may never be in home automation but we are in other industries that use Wi-Fi or Bluetooth.  Are these standards licensed by one company or open standards that anyone can use?  Home automation is no different its just still VERY early in the curve.

 

[macromark]

You do realize that in 2016, the Zigbee Alliance expects that 850 million Zigbee radios will be shipped THIS YEAR alone?  Last June the Z-wave Alliance announced 30 million Z-Wave devices were shipped TO DATE.  That is EVER. So its not true to say Zigbee devices aren't here. That is false.  You can say they a limited number used in consumer home automation area, but you can't say the Zigbee universe doesn't exist. 
 
So why?  We'll certainly numbers don't tell all. Its about marketing and promotion, and in some cases keeping competitors out.  Home automation still remains a limited pretty closed technology, with each company wanting you to buy their products in their ecosystem and no others.  In the end companies have to make profit from selling their products or there is not much motivation to sell them.  If some company spends $50M developing some controller and software, they want to make their money back.  Ideally they give the controller away for free, then make lots of money from the various devices that connect. You see this model over and over. If you can go out and buy someone elses client devices, and not theirs, that doesn't help their bottom line.  This same principal also keeps the home automation market small, with one ecosystem not bothering another. To date, home automation hasn't "happened" as a technology itself, it still has to rely on someone pushing it, and these companies want to make money.
 
Someday, maybe, there will be open source free (or near free) home automation controllers out there and then things will shift to the cheapest add-ons possible since a single company is no longer driving things. Do you think those cheapest devices will be Zigbee or Z-Wave?  We aren't there yet and may never be in home automation but we are in other industries that use Wi-Fi or Bluetooth.  Are these standards licensed by one company or open standards that anyone can use?  Home automation is no different its just still VERY early in the curve.

I think you misread what I wrote or didn't understand what I meant. I did not say the Zigbee universe didn't exist!  I was comparing interoperability in Z-Wave to the interoperabilty currently available in the Zigbee universe. And, this thread is about Zigbee vs Z-Wave in home automation, so that's what I'm focusing on. I can tell you with absolute certainty that 850 million radios shipping this year has very little to do with home automation and very few of those shipped will end up in devices that interoperate with other vendors. That's my point.

 

[ano]

I think you misread what I wrote or didn't understand what I meant. I did not say the Zigbee universe didn't exist!  I was comparing interoperability in Z-Wave to the interoperabilty currently available in the Zigbee universe. And, this thread is about Zigbee vs Z-Wave in home automation, so that's what I'm focusing on. I can tell you with absolute certainty that 850 million radios shipping this year has very little to do with home automation and very few of those shipped will end up in devices that interoperate with other vendors. That's my point.

So you believe Zigbee doesn't enforce compatibility to the standards but Z-wave does?  Really?  I think if you dig deeper you will find the opposite true. The Zigbee Alliance certification verifies incompatibility.  Can you give an example of this incompatibility?  I think you might be confusing intentional incompatibility to general incompatibility.  And Z-Wave devices are always compatible? In Zigbee compatibility is a tightly controlled process. In Z-Wave, maybe sometimes. 

 

[macromark]

So you believe Zigbee doesn't enforce compatibility to the standards but Z-wave does?  Really?  I think if you dig deeper you will find the opposite true. The Zigbee Alliance certification verifies incompatibility.  Can you give an example of this incompatibility?  I think you might be confusing intentional incompatibility to general incompatibility.  And Z-Wave devices are always compatible? In Zigbee compatibility is a tightly controlled process. In Z-Wave, maybe sometimes. 

I'm just trying to help the OP with my insights of working closely with players in the industry for the past 13 years... not really interested in getting into a fight. Bottom line for me is this: There are tons of Z-Wave devices currently available and most of them work with our systems (warts and all). The volume of comparable Zigbee devices (for home automation) is considerably smaller. The acid test for anyone is... how much of your home could you automate with one of these protocols, compared to the other.  On that basis, it's not much of a contest.

 

[ecborgoyn]

I'm not a prophet, but it seems like the Home Automation, IoT, whatever you want to call it seems to be getting some traction.  The 'proprietary' systems have made early inroads with ZWave, etc.  But until now the HA/IoT market has been a bit of niche or 'early adopter' market.  Not really a commodity market.  With some new efforts in things like Thread, BLE, and some of the low-power mesh WiFi initiatives, I'm thinking/hoping that the market moves into the next phase of the adoption cycle...  Open standards provides for more competition for the controller chip makers,  One would hope that competition leads to lower chip prices.  You get the idea.
 
Then there's the international component to the model.  The ZWave 900MHz system isn't universal internationally where the Zigbee 2.4GHz network (with a few 'edge' exceptions) is international.  Granted that the ZWave radios can be 'country/region agile', but at higher cost.  Hence a bigger market and lower device costs for Zigbee (and hopefully lower device prices).
 
I have hopes for Zigbee LL/SE/HA and Thread.  Not to discredit ZWave.  ZWave will continue for a long time.  How many people are still running X-10??  Noticed recently that the Samsung controllers have both ZWave and Zigbee radios.  Probably the way most controllers should be designed.
 
Thanks again for the ideas, opinions, etc.  Any and all are welcome.  Keep them coming.  But PLEASE, no arguments.

 

[waynehead99]

As stated before and this is my opinion, zigbee has it built in by intention to have the ability to lock out other Controller's outside of the ecosystem they were created for. I get it. Control4 wants their stuff to stay with them. They think it will make a return. Short term it does work, which is the way most investors look. Give me gains and give them quick.

Long run though, I feel it hurts not only that company, but also the forward motion of HA in general. When wifi first came out, what a mess until a standard was adopted by all parties. It's still not perfect and even recently with AC there was a fight over the standard. But if they all came together and decided to stop segmenting the market, they might find that profits will still be there.

I have no intention of ever buying into control4, but really do like their switches. So sell them to me and make them work with whatever. I highly doubt you are going to eat into your profit margin that much.

We all know that zigbee is there for commercial applications in a big way, but no one on this forum is in that realm (or at least the numbers are really low). Zwave has the market right now that we play in. I don't know if it will stay that way, but it is the facts currently.

 

[Dean Roddey]

But there's a difference between devices that are intended to be controlled being interoperable, and devices built for a specific, bespoke system. I see no reason at all that Control4 would ever want to do otherwise. It makes no business sense for them, and even more importantly it makes no business sense for the integrators they depend on to sell and install their systems. All they'd be doing is opening up their system to least common denominator products that they will get blamed for if they don't work well, until proven otherwise (on their and their integrator's dimes.)
 
As I said before, there are lots of programs and system that use TCP/IP to communicate, but they in no way know how to talk to each other. We don't talk about that as a fragmentation of the TCP/IP market, it's just that some programs built on top of TCP/IP are intended to talk other things, and some are built to talk to themselves. It's has nothing to do with TCP/IP being a non-standard standard. We have to think of Zigbee similarly to TCP/IP. It is a communications medium and low level packaging scheme, not a messaging standard or application interface standard. Standard messaging and API schemes can be implemented on top of them, but there will always be more than one. And, without that flexibility, neither of them would likely be as successful as they are really.

 

[ano]

Unfortunately until home automation grows lots from its present state, I'm afraid we are going to locked in this predicament.  You have the walled in systems that are expensive but very powerful, like Control4, but those are for the high-end users, even if in today's world there is no reason for the high cost. Then you have Homeseer, CQC, Premise, and other for the DIY market, and there is nothing wrong with that, except their use across the industry is not as robust and we all would like.  The Z-wave and Zigbee devices and how interoperable they are is reflected in that.
 
In the last few years we had a new type emerge, the "hub" like the Lowes iris, Wink, SmartThing, Amazon Echo, and others. For a short time these grabbed some people's interest, and produced a slew of new devices, but this kinda seemed more like a fad than a new product class.   These devices now seem to be located on the discount shelves at most big box stores. The reason is the same old problem, no company made enough money on it to keep supporting it. 
 
Maybe a scheme like how printers have gone is the answer.  You buy a printer for your PC or Mac and they come with a driver that tells your hardware how to communicate with them.  Contrast this to how it is now with Homeseer or CQC where the driver has to be written by the controller company not the device. As we have seen, this is not really a sustainable model long-term, at least in my opinion. 
 
Instead if the controller makers could put together a driver spec. that they all followed, this might be a great start. Then it would be the device maker, not the controller maker that created the driver.  If not the device maker, other people would come forward to write drivers, but only if they worked on more than a single controller platform.  In other-words, the "driver" for an LG XYZ TV would work in Homeseer, CQC, Premise or any other controller.
 
If Dean, Mark and others could work toward this, just think how wonderful and robust the home automation market would be for us users? Will it ever happen? Probably not.

 

[wkearney99]

Apple pretends to have something to offer, but no smart consumer or developer is going to risk putting up with the arrogance of "we know software better than you" and "we'll delete this hardware, because we feel like it".  How ridiculously far they've fallen in customer respect.
 
Meanwhile, google keeps pimping you out to advertisers, as does Facebook.  Run away from this, do not look back (pillar of salt and all that).
 
Microsoft.. well, "Hey Cortana, how are they even still alive?"
 
Amazon's glad to have you on board, and will keep selling you stuff.  These gizmos are here to keep you interested, oh, and buying more stuff from/through us.  Meanwhile I'm waiting for them to do something, hub-wise.
 
On the hardware end you've still got Lutron plugging along with arguably the best lighting controls on the market.  Eventually cheap bites you often enough you start spending up to their level.