Zigbee vs. Z-Wave - ironic?

[ano]

802.15.4 will do well regardless of whether Zigbee does or not. 

That is a very good point.
 

@NeverDie
 
I agree.  Zigbee has been around longer than Z-wave but If Zigbee can't get the vendors to work toward better interoperability then some other protocol such as 6LoWPAN which uses 802.15.4 with IPv6 may fill the void.

This is the double-edged sword with any of these wireless technologies.  Users want interoperability so they have lots of choices and competition decreases the prices. Manufacturers don't want interoperability so that you are locked into their products, and they benefit. The good news is that with Zigbee, both modes are supported. If you want interoperability, then fully support the Zigbee Home Automation profile, and all your devices are interoperable. If your company DOESN'T want that like the route Control4 went, than you can build your own stack, but still benefit from low hardware costs due to high volumes. Zigbee was also designed with the help of MANY companies, so many in that it had to be flexible to have the capability to do almost everything for everyone. The profiles let it perform medical applications and industrial as good as it can do home automation.
 
Z-Wave is just the opposite. Its controlled by one company, so if you want to use the technology you have to license it.  This limits the ultimate volume of chips and keeps the costs high, but on the flip-side, everything works together, by definition. It was also designed for one purpose, and by the nature of business, they had to rush the product out to stay in business. If they designed it for too extensively, the company would be out of business before its first products made it out.
 
I have nothing against Z-Wave, but I think in the long-run Zigbee is the way to go, although it won't happen overnight.
 
If you haven't seen the Zigbee Home Automation products from this company, take a look. (I am not related to this company in any way.) I have ordered and used their products and they work well.
http://www.simplehomenet.com

 

[Automate]

Yes, but it's not just niche companies like Control4.  I've heard that Lowes Iris Z-wave devices don't work with other systems.  It would be great if you could walk into your Lowes / Home Depot / Walmart and know the Zigbee device you buy will work on any Zigbee network.

 

[ano]

Yes, but it's not just niche companies like Control4.  I've heard that Lowes Iris Z-wave devices don't work with other systems.  It would be great if you could walk into your Lowes / Home Depot / Walmart and know the Zigbee device you buy will work on any Zigbee network.

You can IF it supports the "Home Automation" Profile. Unless it says it supports the "Home Automation" profile, there is no guarantee it will work with anything except products from THAT company. Any product CAN support if their manufacturer chooses to. They can also NOT support if they choose to.  The Iris chose NOT to support it because they wanted you to buy THEIR stuff and their stuff only.  That isn't the technology's fault, that is a business decision.
 
Customers need to write to Lowes and tell them they want INTEROPERABLE products, not proprietary ones. How much do you want to bet that in a year or two Iris is just a distant memory?  But the Zigbee Home Automation profile will still be here. Companies will learn eventually.

 

[Automate]

The problem is if you go to Lowes, Home Depot, Staples or Walmart for a Zigbee device product description, you can't determine what profile they support.
 
The Zigbee organization could stipulate if you want to say that your product uses Zigbee technology you also have to say what profile(s) it supports.  A company could still use their own custom profile but you would have to let the prospective customer know this. 

 

[NeverDie]

It's a branding issue.  All it wouild take is a name change.  It shouldn't be called "Zigbee with Home Automation Profile".  It should be called something completely different, and without the word Zigbee in it.  All they need is a catchy word that people can remember, not a phrase.  Otherwise, as evidenced here and elsewhere, there will be endless confusion, and all of it needless.  Underneath the new word, it can be "Zigbee with Home Automation Profile" all it wants to be.  But for anything consumer oriented, it needs to be a simple, easy to remember word.  Period.  A consumer doesn't want to guess at the meaning of what  a "profile" is when they're picking out a product.  That already connotes complexity, and what consumers want is simplicity.   It's hard to fathom why the business suits haven't yet figured out something as basic and as easy as that.

 

[RAL]

I've worked on implementing a number of standards from various organizations in my job. None of them were home automation standards, but the same issues apply there. 
 
Whenever there is a standard, there are always interoperability issues.  Even if every manufacturer claims to follow the standard, things often don't work when you mix one brand with another.  There's always some degree of interpretation of the standard - you and I can both read it and come away with a different understanding of how things should work.  To some degree, that can be due to the standard being ambiguous, or often it's the implementer not understanding the complete meaning of what is specified.
 
Several standards groups hold "interoperability workshops" where the manufacturers can all test their stuff with one another.  Some take advantage of these workshops, and some don't.  And when faced with a problem, it's often a question of who should fix it and whether they want to fix their design so that a competitor can sell more stuff.  The primary concern of any manufacturer with multiple products is whether their own products work together.  Whether they work with other manufacturers products is usually secondary.
 
My experience in working with standards for over 20 years is that it usually takes years to sort all this out.  Two to three years for the simple stuff.  Five to ten years for the more complex stuff.  And the more manufacturers there are, the more complex it becomes and the longer it takes.  
 
The first version of the ZigBee standard came out in 2003, and interoperability issues still have a ways to go.  I think it will be at least another 5 years for most of this to settle down.

 

[Automate]

@RAL,
 
Zigbee supposedly has this but they don't seem to make the companies include it in their product descriptions.  http://www.zigbee.org/Products/TestDevelopmentSolutions.aspx
 

The ZigBee Alliance conducts certification tests to ensure ZigBee solutions offer reliable and robust wireless networking. Every product based on a standard is certified to be interoperable regardless of manufacturer, allowing consumers to purchase and install with confidence. The following test and development products are specifically designed to assist product manufacturers develop products and then prepare for certification. 

 
First there have been different versions
 
Zigbee 2004
Zigbee 2006
Zigbee PRO
 
Then there's all the profiles
 

• Released specifications
  ZigBee Home Automation 1.2
• ZigBee Smart Energy 1.1b
• ZigBee Telecommunication Services 1.0
• ZigBee Health Care 1.0
• ZigBee RF4CE – Remote Control 1.0
• ZigBee RF4CE – Input Device 1.0
• ZigBee Light Link 1.0
• ZigBee IP 1.0
• ZigBee Building Automation 1.0
• ZigBee Gateway 1.0
• ZigBee Green Power 1.0 as optional feature of ZigBee 2012

• Specifications under development
  ZigBee Smart Energy 2.0
• ZigBee Retail Services
• ZigBee Smart Energy 1.2/1.3
• ZigBee Light Link 1.1
• ZigBee Home Automation 1.3

 

[NeverDie]

Is there a good place to shop for devices that have "zigbee with home automation profile"?  When I look at some of the usual home automation vendor sites, I'm frankly not finding much.  
 
If the company's sitting in zigbee committees actually made some products and not just sat in committees, maybe zigbee wouldn't be as DOA as it seems to be and their committee work would actually matter. .. 
 
Maybe they should discuss that possibility in their next committee meeting!   :rofl:

 

[Dean Roddey]

I say they go with "Zigbee, Dude".

 

[pete_c]

Securifi will be selling Zigbee products on their online store for the Almond +.  Presentation and navigation are nice on the store. 
 
The Securifi Zigbee store will be going public sometime in the near future. 
 
Personally been playing with Z-Wave for a while now.
 
I was thinking a bit ago of playing with the HAI Zigbee Omnistat. 
 
There are Cocoontech users on the forum using Zigbee Leviton HAI Omnitstats today. It appears that they have no issues with them.
 
I am today playing with a few wired / wireless Zigbee devices with the Almond +.
 
I cannot really say much about comparing the wireless Zigbee to wireless Z-Wave (with batteries) cuz I never played with it.
 
I have moved them around the house and the Almond + is on a wire rack sitting on top of the PFSense firewall.  (lots of metal  around it).   Well and the Leviton Z-Wave PIM is next to the fuse panel adjacent to metal electrical conduit (works fine).
 
So far all of the wired Z-Wave devices I have just work with the Almond +. 
 
Both types of devices are touch once and play via the LCD GUI or Web GUI.

 

[ano]

Is there a good place to shop for devices that have "zigbee with home automation profile"? 

You may want to read my post above a bit closer. Start with:
http://www.simplehomenet.com
 
They carry products that meet the "Smart Energy" profile and the "Home Automation" profile. All are labeled very clearly which profiles they support.
 
Other Zigbee items include Kwickset locks, and several HAI/Leviton items since they support Zigbee, including their OmniStat2 thermostat.  Zigbee power modules report the power consumed, which is a nice feature.

 

[pete_c]

Just a quick update relating to the Almond +.

Project Update # 4 - 4th of July, 2014
 
Apologies for missing last weeks update, but we’ve been very busy getting the last things set for production and shipping of the Almond+. By the time you read this update, the first units have been shipped and tracking numbers should be making their ways to backers in North America. As you can see from the pictures included in this post, production is ramping up quickly and yields are very good. We’ve also performed drop tests on the mass produced units to make sure they’ll live up to both our and your expectations of a solid product.

 

[Automate]

HD allows you to filter their Wink home automation products by protocol.  They are constantly adding products so I'm sure things will change soon but it's interesting that right now Z-wave does not have its own category and 6loWPAN has more products than Zigbee. http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Home-Automation/Wink/N-5yc1vZc1jwZ1z0um34