Trouble with NC non-burglar zones and EOL resister

I have an Elk M1 panel. I have been able to wire an EOL resistor in series to my NC burglar zones and everything behaves as expected. When I try to do the same to my NC non-burglar zones (carbon monoxide and water sensor so far), the zone only shows up as "trouble" when it is in alarm condition. I removed the EOL resistor and set the zone to simply NC and it then works as expected. Any ideas? Is an EOL resister not possible on a non-burglar zone?

Dont know if this will help you or not?

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=168

Kazibole said:

I have an Elk M1 panel. I have been able to wire an EOL resistor in series to my NC burglar zones and everything behaves as expected. When I try to do the same to my NC non-burglar zones (carbon monoxide and water sensor so far), the zone only shows up as "trouble" when it is in alarm condition. I removed the EOL resistor and set the zone to simply NC and it then works as expected. Any ideas? Is an EOL resister not possible on a non-burglar zone?

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The EOL-FAQ document does not address this issue, as it is generic and not specific to brands. This is an M1 issue. Maybe Spanky can help here.

According the M1 manual, Menu 05- Zone definitions, page 31, non-burg zones can be EOLR supervised. It puzzles me as to what may be wrong.

I think you need to write some rules about what happens when those zones trip.

Spanky wrote up an M1 Application Note covering water leaks, maybe that will help you.

http://www.elkproducts.com/water_shutoff.html

On non burglar and fire zones using EOL resistors, an open loop shows trouble and a shorted loop across the EOL resistor goes into alarm. On normally closed defined loops, a closed loop is normal and an open loop is in alarm. When the alarm is acknowledged and the loop is still in alarm, the zone will show trouble.

It sounds like the CO contacts are normally closed.

Set the M1 contacts for normally closed and wire the CO detector in series with the M1 zone loop. When the zone loop opens the CO alarm will sound. The zone loop must be restored before the CO trouble goes away.

Some CO detectors have form C or normally open, normally closed, and a common contact. You can use the normally open contacts wired in parallel to an EOL resistor and the zone loop definition set to EOL resistor.

Spanky said:

On non burglar and fire zones using EOL resistors, an open loop shows trouble and a shorted loop goes into alarm.

It sounds like the CO contacts are normally open.

Try putting the CO contacts in parallel to the EOL resistor. When the CO goes into alarm the contacts should close on the CO detector and cause an alarm.

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Thanks Spanky. The CO detector I have has both NC and NO contacts. The water sensor is only NC. If I take the EOL resister out of the picture but wire them the same using the NC contacts and set the zone to NC, then it alarms as expected. I have a multimeter that I can use to check some things out but I am not sure where to put it to get meaningful values.

Just to confirm that I am wiring correctly:

Elk zone -> EOL resister -> CO NC contact .... CO common contact -> Elk Neg

Kazibole said:

Thanks Spanky. The CO detector I have has both NC and NO contacts. The water sensor is only NC. If I take the EOL resister out of the picture but wire them the same using the NC contacts and set the zone to NC, then it alarms as expected. I have a multimeter that I can use to check some things out but I am not sure where to put it to get meaningful values.

Just to confirm that I am wiring correctly:

Elk zone -> EOL resister -> CO NC contact .... CO common contact -> Elk Neg

Click to expand...

In the wiring you have described, you will get a trouble when the water sensor goes into alarm.

Define the zone for normally closed, take out the EOL resistor and wire the water sensor in series to the zone loop. As long as the zone is closed, it will be normal. When the water sensor opens, you will have a water alarm. After acknowledging the alarm with the sensor still in alarm, the keypad will show trouble until the water sensor is restored.

Spanky said:

In the wiring you have described, you will get a trouble when the water sensor goes into alarm.

Define the zone for normally closed, take out the EOL resistor and wire the water sensor in series to the zone loop. As long as the zone is closed, it will be normal. When the water sensor opens, you will have a water alarm. After acknowledging the alarm with the sensor still in alarm, the keypad will show trouble until the water sensor is restored.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Spanky. So if I understand what you are saying, if I use normally closed on the sensor I cannot use an EOL resister and have to set the zone definition on the M1 to normally closed. If I use normally open on the sensor, then I can wire the EOL resister in parallel and have the zone definition on the M1 to EOL Supervised?

Is this the same with burglar zones? So far I have my motions with a tamper switch wired with 2 EOL resisters using the "Optional Four (4) State Zone Wiring (2 series resistors w/ N.C. contacts)" wiring mentioned on page 9 in the install manual. This works fine. I also have some door and window contacts with are normally closed, currently with no EOL resister. I was planing to add an EOL resister soon according to the "Traditional Three (3) State Zone Wiring (1 series resistor)" also mentioned on page 9 in the install manual. This is what I did for the CO and water sensors above but it didn't work as expected. Or am I just not understanding the wiring diagrams in the manual?

Kazibole said:

Thanks for the reply Spanky. So if I understand what you are saying, if I use normally closed on the sensor I cannot use an EOL resister and have to set the zone definition on the M1 to normally closed. If I use normally open on the sensor, then I can wire the EOL resister in parallel and have the zone definition on the M1 to EOL Supervised?

Is this the same with burglar zones? So far I have my motions with a tamper switch wired with 2 EOL resisters using the "Optional Four (4) State Zone Wiring (2 series resistors w/ N.C. contacts)" wiring mentioned on page 9 in the install manual. This works fine. I also have some door and window contacts with are normally closed, currently with no EOL resister. I was planing to add an EOL resister soon according to the "Traditional Three (3) State Zone Wiring (1 series resistor)" also mentioned on page 9 in the install manual. This is what I did for the CO and water sensors above but it didn't work as expected. Or am I just not understanding the wiring diagrams in the manual?

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Burglar zones have the optional four state wiring, but this option is not available on non fire 24 hour zones.

Spanky said:

Burglar zones have the optional four state wiring, but this option is not available on non fire 24 hour zones.

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Spanky, I understand that non burglar zones do not support the 4 state wiring. My remaining confusion relates to the 3 state wiring with one EOL resister. On page 9 in the Elk M1 manual, it shows that the 3 state wiring works with both normally closed and normally open contacts. Since in the situation with my CO and water sensors, you've explained that the 3 state wiring only works with normally open. This bring me to a new question with regard to 3 state wiring and burglar zones: will the 3 state wiring work with both normally closed and normally open contacts as stated in the manual, or will it only work with normally open contacts as in your previous posts in this topic?

Thanks for your quick responses.

Kazibole said:

Spanky, I understand that non burglar zones do not support the 4 state wiring. My remaining confusion relates to the 3 state wiring with one EOL resister. On page 9 in the Elk M1 manual, it shows that the 3 state wiring works with both normally closed and normally open contacts. Since in the situation with my CO and water sensors, you've explained that the 3 state wiring only works with normally open. This bring me to a new question with regard to 3 state wiring and burglar zones: will the 3 state wiring work with both normally closed and normally open contacts as stated in the manual, or will it only work with normally open contacts as in your previous posts in this topic?

Thanks for your quick responses.

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Good question. I will try to answer it.

In burglar zones using EOL resistors, if the loop opens(opening a normally series wired contact) or shorts across the EOL resistor(normally open contacts wired in parallel to the EOL resistor) the zone becomes violated. If armed and the zone becomes violated, the entrance delay starts or the alarm is activated immediately.

24 hour non burglar zones using EOL resistors have 3 states:
1. Normal, no alarm is when the circuit is closed with the EOL resistor in place. Normally closed sensor contacts wired in series with the zone loop are closed. Normally open sensor contacts wired in parallel to the EOL resistor are open. The voltage at the zone terminals will read about 6.5 volts +-.
2. Trouble, the zone loop is open. If a normally closed sensor is wired in series, it has opened. The voltage at the zone terminals will read about 13 volts +-.
3. Alarm, the zone loop has been shorted across the EOL resistor. If a normally open sensor wired across the EOL resistor has closed or shorted across the zone loop. The voltage at the zone terminals will read about 0 volts.

I have stuff wired similar to the OP, but it seems to be working as expected. I'm using the Aux 1 and Aux 2 zone types.

signal15 said:

I have stuff wired similar to the OP, but it seems to be working as expected. I'm using the Aux 1 and Aux 2 zone types.

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Aux1 and Aux 2 may behave a little different than the 24 hour alarm types like, police, heat, water, gas etc.

CO is wired like a fire zone, NO ckt with EOLR installed across the relay poles at the last detector, unless you're using a detector that has a trouble relay output (system sensor).

The water sensor, if something simliar to a Waterbug (Winland) you don't technically need the relay box to connect to the alarm panel, it works fine on it's own connected to the zone. If you have other types, YMMV.