can't arm elk m1 in stay mode with interior zones violated

R

rexwilson

Member
Forgive the possible newbie misunderstanding... I've just installed an Elk M1 for the first time.
I notice that I'm unable to arm it in "stay" mode while interior zones are violated.
I'm able to modify the zones to make them force-armable, but this seems kind of redundant, and seems to defeat the purpose of having a "stay" mode in the first place: isn't the whole point of this to allow you to arm it while interior zones are tripped?
Also, when using the option of setting the interior zones to force-armable, this causes the keypads to constantly blink their ready lights, which is kind of distracting/annoying. Am I misunderstanding something here?? Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Sounds like you have your zones improperly defined. Interior zones should be listed as just that (interior burglar). That's used for things like Motions. If you have interior doors that you want protected, that's a different story because all zones must be secure to arm normally, even in Stay mode. For motions, that means standing still for a moment before arming.
 
Thanks, Work2Play, that's helpful, and there are kind of two parts to what you said: 1. you're right, I do have interior doors defined as interior. But the 2nd part of what you said "all zones must be secure to arm normally", still confirms my original complaint. I'm not sure why interior zones should have to be secure to arm in Stay mode. Although in my case they're doors, even in the case when they are motion, if i've got kids playing around in the room and I want to arm at night in Stay mode, I'm not sure why I should have to have the kids stand still. Again, the whole point of Stay seems to be to tell the system that I don't care about the interior zones. So why does the system insist on the interior zones being secure before it will arm in Stay mode?
 
Well, It's normal behavior in my experience - I think "ready to arm" is a specific state and the systems don't seem to be smart enough to go "oh, well he only wants to arm the outside, so don't worry about it). Unfortunately I don't have a good fix for that. As for the interior doors, are they used for security or automation? If automation you can define them as non-alarm and just use rules - I have most of my interior doors hooked up to contacts, but I use that differently.

This could be accomplished with a function button - not ideal, but arming via rules can get around the restrictions.

Can you elaborate on what you want to accomplish a little more and maybe there will be more suggestions available.
 
re the question of what i want to accomplish: i have an outer front door which leads to a foyer, then some interior doors that connect that foyer with inner parts of the house. I have sensors on those inner doors just as a double layer of protection (not really all that necessary, but similar to the redundancy one would have with interior motion detectors). Though regardless of my door layout,
the real issue is as you described: the panel isn't smart enough to know I only want to arm the perimeter and to ignore any violated interior zones. That seems like a silly oversight in a panel that has tons of computing power on board, and could easily be smart enough to do this. Maybe some Elk folks are reading this?
 
While not as pretty of a fix, one option is to use a function button for Arming in Stay mode. The rules engine is able to arm areas that normally wouldn't be available to arm - so using F4 to arm away for instance, the internal logic would tell it to arm no matter what, then if violated zones become secure, then start watching them too. Since they're interior doors, they'd never matter.

There are other less-pretty tricks that can be done with relays/outputs but rules with a function button would be the cleanest. Otherwise a habit of hitting the "bypass all" then arming would be next.
 
I have a separate "interior" section consisting of contacts which I put in an area by themselves. I have rules that allows me to arm them only while zone 1 is in away mode. The best part is since the rules engine arms that area it will arm whichever contacts are ready and bypass those which are not. Just make sure you have rules setup to cover all arm modes for area 1 and what that should mean to the "interior" area.
 
That's an even better fix, video321 - let those interior zones fully follow the regular one and it'll make your "ready to arm" light stay solid and easy to arm. I like it.
 
Trying to ressurect the old topic :)
 

video321/Work2Play,
 
1. When you talk about a separate interior area(say Area2) to include the entrance motion sensor located beside the keypad, how does one actually arm it in the "away" mode ? As I understand, if the motion sensor is "violated", the rule will bypass it (per discussion above) which makes the sensor useless in the away mode.
 
2. Assuming my understanding of having a separate area(Area2) for the interior motion detectors is correct, how does one disarm it since the keypad is assigned to the main zone (Area1)?
 
Thanks.
 
It's not uncommon to have a motion sensor that can see you near a keypad - you just stand still for a second with your finger near the ARM button, and as soon as the thing sees you standing still, the green light comes on, and you can hit ARM. 
 
Otherwise if following the two Areas method, what you do is create rules to arm/disarm Area 2 in response to what you're doing with Area 1... so Area 1 will pay attention to the exterior zones, and the green light will be on if everything is secure... but as soon as you arm, your custom rule attempts to arm Area 2 - and any violated zones just get force-armed (bypassed until they become secure); while anything that's Secure gets fully armed.  Area 2 is armed/disarmed entirely via rules... many people use this method for Garages too so they can have more time to get in/out.
 
Work2Play said:
you just stand still for a second with your finger near the ARM button, and as soon as the thing sees you standing still, the green light comes on, and you can hit ARM. 
Click to expand...
 
Yes, that's what I usually do.
 
Thanks for rule usage clarification. Somehow, I missed that you can disarm through the rule as well and I was also confused by the "bypass" word in the older description when, in fact, "force arm" was meant.
 
sorry to belabor this point, but it seems to me that all this effort is due to a fairly dumb bit of user interface design on Elk's part. If Elk system architects are following this post, it might be worth fixing this in future systems.
Putting it in somewhat simplistic terms:
1. I push Stay as a way of saying to the Elk,  "I'm inside, and I want to arm the perimeter."
2. Elk says "sorry, I can't, because I sense you're inside".
Didn't I just tell you I was inside?? Isn't that the whole point of Stay mode?
 
Not quite as elegant but you could setup a rule for "Arm to stay with bypass" and assign it to an F key on the keypad. 
 
I actually have that setup on my system, for easy access by the wife if she wants a window or two open but to arm the rest but I havent tested it with a motion sensor in "sensed motion" mode while trying to arm.
 
I believe if you have the points configured as interior or force arm the system would ignore their faults anyways.
 
I don't think the interior points need to be normal to be armed.
 
DELInstallations said:
I believe if you have the points configured as interior or force arm the system would ignore their faults anyways.
 
I don't think the interior points need to be normal to be armed.
Click to expand...
 
One of my motion sensors is Burglar Interior Follower (since its near a keypad).  If its violated I cannot arm the Elk in any mode, even Stay.
 
Im guessing making it force armable (mine is not, currently) would fix that, but just being Interior doesnt seem to allow it.
 
EDIT: just tried it...making the motion Force Armable worked...my KPNAV shows "ready to force arm" while the motion is violated.  Now the question is, is there a way to allow force arming a Stay mode only, while NOT allowing force arm for an Away mode?  It doesnt matter if the motion is bypassed when in stay, but in Away it will matter.
 
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