3-way switch confusion (UPB retrofit)

[js19707]

So i've been making good progress replacing existing switches with UPB ones (mostly the HAI 600w dimmable). But when it comes to the 3-way switches (mostly Lutron Maestro), the existing wiring confuses me a bit.

The diagrams below show the original wiring ("before") and my various attempts. I've attempted to compare the wiring I've seen w/ various diagrams I've found for normal 3-way switch wiring. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to match any diagram I've found, so I've had to resort to figuring this out on my own (never a good thing).

The recessed lights (load) are wired between the two switches. I don't have easy access to the wiring at each can light so i can't tell exactly how they're wired, so I've been reduced to inferring based on trial-and-error.

I'd like to convert the 3-way switch setups to a 2-way switch and use the other j-box for a 6 or 8 button keypad. Failing that, I'd like to make them functional 3-way switches using the HAI 600w switch and a remote switch.

Here's a sketch of the existing 3-way wiring ("Before").


Here's a (successful) conversion to a 2-way switch. In one case, I was able to pull the line, neutral, and ground wires from something else occupying the same J-box, so I powered the keypad from that.



Unfortunately, some of the 3-way switch locations are single-gang J-boxes with no (unswitched) line/neutral/ground wires on the far side so the above configuration would have required me to forego putting any keypad on the far end.

I hoped to rewire to put a 2-way switch at the far end, so I could use the line/neutral/ground wires at the near end to power a keypad. Given that the working configuration shown above required me to wire nut the black and white wires at the remote end, I inferred that the white wire at the remote end actually carried power to the lights rather than neutral. Thus I hoped I could wire as shown below but this simply didn't work (no diagnostic lights shown on the switch, no breaker tripped, etc).



When this didn't work, I decided to wire up the HAI master and remote switches and leave it as a UPB-capable 3-way switch but that didn't work either (no diagnostic lights shown on the switch, no breaker tripped, etc). I wired as shown below:



I'm now thinking about wiring the HAI UPB switches as the original Lutron Maestro switches were wired, but since I couldn't make any sense of how those were wired (appear to be different from what the Lutron Maestro wiring diagrams depict), I was reluctant to make this change without asking the experts here for guidance.

So..
1. Are there other options I missed which may allow me to get a 2-way switch wired in on the far end (without having to run romex from another J-box)?

2. Will anything "bad" (broken UPB switches, fire, etc) happen if I try wiring the HAI master and remote switches as the Lutron Maestro switches were originally?

Thanks!
-js

 

[Event5]

See if this helps

3 way diagrams

Dave

 

[js19707]

See if this helps

3 way diagrams

Dave

Dave thanks for the attachment. I looked it over, but I'm not sure it applies to my case. In fact, I'd hoped to be able to do exactly what was shown here as the "Virtual Remote" setup (master switch at the far end). Unlike the diagram shown here, however, I have the load in between the switches not following the second switch. AFAICT, that means I can't really change the wires around w/o knowing how they're wired to the recessed lighting fixtures.

What confuses me about my current wiring setup is what's shown in my diagram from above, where I had to tie the black and white wires in order to complete the circuit to my lights.

I've been staring at the Lutron Maestro wiring diagram on their web site:



This seems the closest to how the switches were originally wired. The Master switch is on the far end and the red wire on near end is connected to Hot. Do the HAI UPB switches support being wired in a similar manner (I'm not sure what the equivalent of the Red wire from the Lutron Slave is on the HAI Auxiliary switch)?

sigh.. this makes my head hurt.

 

[ceady]

Are you sure your original wiring diagram is correct? You seem to be missing two wires. Typically you have your black and white line coming into one box for power, the 3-way wire (black, white, red) and then there should be an additional black and white which is connected to the lights in either one of the junction boxes. Typically the 3-way wire only travels from switch to switch and does not actually connect to the lights themselves.

If you can clarify, then I should be able to help.

Thanks

 

[js19707]

Are you sure your original wiring diagram is correct? You seem to be missing two wires. Typically you have your black and white line coming into one box for power, the 3-way wire (black, white, red) and then there should be an additional black and white which is connected to the lights in either one of the junction boxes. Typically the 3-way wire only travels from switch to switch and does not actually connect to the lights themselves.

If you can clarify, then I should be able to help.

Thanks

Hi ceady-
Thanks for the reply. As I haven't gone up into the attic to see how the recessed light fixtures are wired, I can't be sure of the path the wires take. So, take what I've described above with a grain or two of salt.

What I'm looking at is what's in the j-boxes when i remove the faceplate and the switch.

On one end, I have the following wires in the J box:
- Hot, neutral, and ground (black, white, uninsulated); I can tell which ones these are with certainty because the same Hot and neutral may be used to feed multiple switches in the same J-box. These wires typically enter the box from the bottom.
- Black, Red, White, uninsulated wires that come out of the other end of the switch. These typically exit the box from the top.

On the other end, I have the following wires in the J box:
- Black, red, white, uninsulated wires that typically enter the box from the top.

And that's it. You're saying there's typically a couple of extra wires (black and white)?

 

[ceady]

"You're saying there's typically a couple of extra wires (black and white)?"


Typically, however from your pictures it appears thats not what has been done.
Based on what you've drawn you can not put a regular switch in the first junction box and send power the the second junction box without getting up in the attic and rewiring. If getting in the attic is an option then it is quite simple to rewire.

View attachment revisedlight.bmp

Hopefully that picture makes sense to you

 

[speacock]

js,

Looking at your second picture you should be able to make this work. If I am understanding how it was wired, as of the second picture the black wire in the right jbox is effectively a white wire.

If you tie red to power in the left jbox you should be able to put a keypad in the right jbox and feed it from red/white.

If you want the switch in the right jbox you need to reverse the path. Send power down the red, and switch red to black in the right box. Now tie the black wire to white in the left box. The reason for this is that you need the switch to be on the power side, not the neutral side to be code complaint.

If this doesn't make sense I can try to draw it up.

Sean

 

[js19707]

js,

Looking at your second picture you should be able to make this work. If I am understanding how it was wired, as of the second picture the black wire in the right jbox is effectively a white wire.

If you tie red to power in the left jbox you should be able to put a keypad in the right jbox and feed it from red/white.
[..]

Thanks Sean. Hmm, I had assumed that in the second picture it was the white wire that was effectively a black wire

I guess either one is possible since I don't know what's going on w/ the wiring in between the two j-boxes..

is there some way to tell short of (no pun intended) hooking this up to a $60 UPB switch and trying it? ( i'm assuming by connecting hot to a terminal that's supposed to be neutral i could damage the switch.. is that true? )

i think i have a multimeter sitting around somewhere but i've never used it on an AC circuit before. i assume it would allow me to see the difference between hot and neutral?

 

[Steve]

You really need to identify what you have before messing with stuff. Connection wrong wires can result in injury or worse. The key is to know FOR SURE what is hot, what is the load and what are the travellers. This is my favorite site for identifying the various methods of 3-way wiring. I won't even hazard a guess because it can be wired lots of ways. Best to use your meter, or get one of those induction devices that buzz when near ac. Lots of time (but there is no sure bets), power comes in 1 switchbox and load is connected in another. You can always use a traveller to route power or whatever is needed from one box to another AFTER you identify everything and have a plan. If you have black wires hooked up to a switch and they are not hot, then most likely they are the load. Just check the black/white in same sheath with your meter, you will easily find the hot. Then find the other black/white pair and test, if no reading its probably the load. Once you are sure what is what it will be easy to rewire however you want. And the standard disclaimer - 'if you are not comfortable, please call a qualified electrician'.

 

[az1324]

Seems like it might be wired this way: http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/informat...tch-option7.htm

In this case you're going to have to use switch 2 as the master because the load wire is in that box and there is not an extra wire to pass the load to the first box.

Also, if this is the way it is wired, your third picture would have worked if you switched the white and black wires at the second switch.

So switch 1 would be hot src -> blk sw & blk trav, wh src->wh sw & white trav & red trav, red sw = nc.
Switch 2 would be blk->red sw, red->wh sw, wh->blk sw.

That is assuming the colors are wired the same way as the diagram.

I would disconnect everything except grounds and then ground one wire at a time at one switchbox while testing for continuity with ground at the other switchbox.

 

[speacock]

is there some way to tell short of (no pun intended) hooking this up to a $60 UPB switch and trying it? ( i'm assuming by connecting hot to a terminal that's supposed to be neutral i could damage the switch.. is that true? )

i think i have a multimeter sitting around somewhere but i've never used it on an AC circuit before. i assume it would allow me to see the difference between hot and neutral?

Try this. Set your multimeter to the diode "beep" setting if it has one. Remove all the light bulbs, turn off the breaker and disconnect all the wires in the two boxes. Now with a long wire attached to one side of the multimeter, go wire by wire and check of continuity, including the ground wire. Draw out a diagram of what is linked to what and we can proceed from there.

Sean

 

[az1324]

Now with a long wire attached to one side of the multimeter

Grounding one wire at a time seems a little easier.

 

[js19707]

Ok, folks: I didn't get a chance to sit down again and play with the wiring until today, so sorry for the delay in responding.

First of all, thanks to everyone for your replies. It turns out that az1324 was correct: it was indeed wired in the manner described in his post, which means I was able to wire up the 600w dimmer switch and a keypad controller as he suggested (thanks az1324! it is very much appreciated)

(drawing included here for completeness )



Now that I have an understanding of how the 3-way switches are wired in my house, I believe the following is true:
As currently wired, I don't have a free wire available to be a 'control' wire between a 600w dimmer switch and an auxiliary/remote switch (the yellow wire on the HAI switches). This isn't such a big deal, as I can use keypad controllers but does mean i have to return the auxiliary switch i bought (and of course i'll be spending more as the keypad controllers are more expensive).