ALC Lighting Frustrations - looking for new options

[jmark71]

Guys,

After buying into ALC as the eventual lighting solution for our new house early last year, we pre-wired with CAT5 for that eventuality. Even though I've already sunk a good deal of cash into the wiring (rolled into mortgage so not too visible to the wife thankfully!) and an initial set of switches (on the hand, quite visible!), I'm seriously having second thoughts about going down this route even after installing a few switches (and really liking them):

1) The price increases are REALLY hard to stomach. While Tony at SetNet has offered some price protection, the prices are still going to make things somewhat prohibitive.

2) After discussing ordering parts from SetNet, Tony has let me know that there are delays in getting new product in house - apparently there is a 90-day wait on dimmers and switches.

3) While I really appreciate the obvious passion Tony has for ALC, I just can't see how the technology can compete with other newer technologies that can be had at similar prices (Lutron's new RadioRA2 is the perfect example of this).

So with that being said... what are my options? I'm thinking UPB or some ZWave or Zigbee solution. RadioRA2 sounds good too, but doesn't appear to be DIY-friendly and the price again makes it somewhat prohibitive.

Most of the posts on here concerning UPB seem to be quite positive (as are posts for Centralite's Jetstream), but what are the advantages and disadvantages to each of the above as compared to ALC? The only thing (beyond just working!) that is a must, is that whatever solution I do go with, it has to integrate with CQC.

 

[broconne]

Guys,

After buying into ALC as the eventual lighting solution for our new house early last year, we pre-wired with CAT5 for that eventuality. Even though I've already sunk a good deal of cash into the wiring (rolled into mortgage so not too visible to the wife thankfully!) and an initial set of switches (on the hand, quite visible!), I'm seriously having second thoughts about going down this route even after installing a few switches (and really liking them):

1) The price increases are REALLY hard to stomach. While Tony at SetNet has offered some price protection, the prices are still going to make things somewhat prohibitive.

2) After discussing ordering parts from SetNet, Tony has let me know that there are delays in getting new product in house - apparently there is a 90-day wait on dimmers and switches.

3) While I really appreciate the obvious passion Tony has for ALC, I just can't see how the technology can compete with other newer technologies that can be had at similar prices (Lutron's new RadioRA2 is the perfect example of this).

So with that being said... what are my options? I'm thinking UPB or some ZWave or Zigbee solution. RadioRA2 sounds good too, but doesn't appear to be DIY-friendly and the price again makes it somewhat prohibitive.

Most of the posts on here concerning UPB seem to be quite positive (as are posts for Centralite's Jetstream), but what are the advantages and disadvantages to each of the above as compared to ALC? The only thing (beyond just working!) that is a must, is that whatever solution I do go with, it has to integrate with CQC.

There has been a fair amount of discussion in some of the other threads about Lutron series 4. Which, while not officially supported on cat5 - people say it works. I am in the same boat as you.. CAT5 to all my switches and rethinking my initial ALC selection.

 

[fcwilt]

Of course your mileage may vary but after researching several systems I opted to give UPB a go. For me it has worked well. The house is around 9000 sf on three levels. I have installed 50+ devices, a phase coupler or two and filters on devices known to suck up the UPB signals. The UPB devices are all tied into my home automation system and they work fine.

I have no regrets.

 

[Sacedog]

I started with ALC, and prewired my house for it as well. I had also purchased a fair amount of switches. After some time working with it through CQC and my M1, I made the decision to go with UPB. I currently have 60+ Gen 2 HAI switches installed, and have another 20 in a box waiting to be installed. I have been VERY pleased with it.

- The responsiveness is great.
- They work like a traditional light switch before they are programmed.
- The 3-4-5-way setups are easy to understand and setup.
- The programming is easy.
- You can mix and match manufacturers.
- You have a ton of options for different types of switches; lamp modules; in-line appliance modules; and other devices.
- They are supported out of the box by numerous different automation vendors.
- Since the technology is not propritary, my guess is that you will be able to get the switches in the future.
- Since there are multiple vendors selling UPB, there is competition, and therefor the price stays in check.
- You don't have to run a bunch or wires and dedicate a can to house all of the boards

I have been very happy with my decision to change lighting technologies.

 

[Steve]

Most of the posts on here concerning UPB seem to be quite positive (as are posts for Centralite's Jetstream), but what are the advantages and disadvantages to each of the above as compared to ALC? The only thing (beyond just working!) that is a must, is that whatever solution I do go with, it has to integrate with CQC.

The problem is all environments and installs are different. So it comes down to what is important to you and in what order? Reliability, Price, Features, Standards, etc. The biggest (and I'm sorry to all the ALC fans out there) benefit to ALC is reliability. The bottom line is that's the selling point of it - it's hardwired. So theoretically it is 100% reliable and you don't have to concern yourself with control issues. There are very few competitors in this area - hardwired control but traditionally wired - I think at this point Lutron is it.

When you discuss any of the others - UPB, Insteon, Zwave, Zigbee, Ra2, etc none of them are hardwired, they are either use the powerline or airwaves for control. So again in theory they are subject to interference of some sort and can be less reliable (and sometimes plain unusable) than ALC or Lutron hardwire. Now that's where your environment comes in. I think its safe to say the large majority of users of any of these other techs have great success but depending on your particular situation you may have issues. All of the other products in my opinion at least equal or better ALC in terms of features, etc. So it comes down to what you really want. If cost is an issue, UPB and Jetstream are certainly less expensive and if you are happy with the product portfolio, etc, they may work great for you. But to be fair since you mentioned them specifically - I don't agree with your assessment of UPB and Jetstream. UPB is wildly successful for many people and they have an extensive product line supported by 3 manufactures. Sure you read of horror stories with it but those are the few specific cases where noise is an issue. I have noise issues with UPB as well but it can be worked around usually. Jetstream is also a great product and typically is very reliable assuming you have enough devices for a good wireless mesh network. But they have had issues too. The current switches have poor tactile buttons for some people.

I think you could be very happy with UPB or Jetstream for the price assuming they worked in your specific environment and they had the feature set, etc you need. You just need to figure it out and try the ones you are leaning toward before making a big investment. And with UPB I would strongly suggest Gen II devices which effectively eliminates Simply Automated.

 

[jmark71]

...I don't agree with your assessment of UPB and Jetstream. UPB is wildly successful for many people and they have an extensive product line supported by 3 manufactures.

Thanks for the the input... Just for the record, I never meant to make any assessment of UPB or Jetstream in my original post and indeed these are the two technologies I'm actually considering as most people don't seem to have any issues with them.

The only concern I have with UPB is that response time has been noted as an issue - but maybe that's been solved with the GenII products? The prices are pretty reasonable too - I guess my only question with UPB comes down to which manufacturer is the most reliable, and where can I get a rundown on how all the various products actually work (there seems to be multitudes of different switch types etc.)

With Jetstream, the only thing I've heard about is the paddle/button issue which apparently is being worked on by Centralite. Being a Zigbee (Pro?) system seems to be a strong selling point too, at least in terms of mitigating somewhat the potential issue of only having one supplied (fool me once, ALC!)

 

[ano]

Have maybe 60 Simply Automated UPB switches for several years now, and they are 100% reliable, so I'm not sure how ALC could be more reliable. No major failures but I have had to replace 2 or 3 faceplates on switches that are used ALOT. They just wear out over time and you have to press harder for them to work. Replacing the faceplates (and not switches) has always fixed the problem for me.

I have Gen. I switches and if there is a "delay" the 100's of not 1000's of people over my house over the years have never mentioned it to me, and neither has my wife, and she would certainly tell me if it bothered her.

The CQC driver for UPB is good but not excellent. If a link is sent it has to poll every switch changed by that link to get their latest state. This isn't a UPB problem as much as it is a driver issue in that the author of the driver took some shortcuts to make the driver simpler. (UPStart does not have the same problem.) The negative is that the driver may take some time to get in-sync with the light state after a link is executed.

 

[Steve]

I have to apologize, as I was clearly not awake when I read your post. I somehow read 'quite negative' just the opposite of what you infact said so that my bad and I'm sorry. And, while Jetstream is build on the 'Pro' platform it is still proprietary and will not work with other Zigbee Pro devices. Centralite claims they have a 'standard' Zigbee Pro line they will release when there are controllers that are Pro compatible.

 

[Steve]

Have maybe 60 Simply Automated UPB switches for several years now, and they are 100% reliable, so I'm not sure how ALC could be more reliable.

C'mon ano, you know the answer to that! Under ideal conditions (or maybe I should say non-negative) UPB will be 100% reliable. The difference is UPB is subject to powerline interference whereas ALC is not. But I bet you a weeks salary I can come to your house and make your UPB system 0% reliable! All it would take it me plugging in a heavy noisemaker into one of your outlets.

 

[fcwilt]

Have maybe 60 Simply Automated UPB switches for several years now, and they are 100% reliable, so I'm not sure how ALC could be more reliable.

C'mon ano, you know the answer to that! Under ideal conditions (or maybe I should say non-negative) UPB will be 100% reliable. The difference is UPB is subject to powerline interference whereas ALC is not. But I bet you a weeks salary I can come to your house and make your UPB system 0% reliable! All it would take it me plugging in a heavy noisemaker into one of your outlets.

And I can make any system you care to choose fail also - just throw the main breaker.

 

[beelzerob]

even after installing a few switches

To quote my old Ultima Online days.... "Can I have ur stuff??"

I'll keep an eye out for the cqc switch sale when you decide on your new direction.