Apple TV vs. Sage

[upstatemike]

This morning I had somebody ask me a bunch of questions about Apple TV and how it works compared to Sage and I didn't know the answers because I have never really looked into the Apple product. According to this person, Apple takes all of the content it records or rips and distributes it wirelessly to all of the additional units (extenders?) in the house. This means storage is duplicated locally at each TV but it allows distribution through low bandwidth WiFi since nothing is streamed in real time.

Questions:

Is this person correct about the way Apple TV works?

Is this a better paradigm than Sage if network wiring is not an option?

 

[jaysonc]

That person is partailly correct. The AppleTV can work in two modes.

First is the the mode that was described to you. Content is cached locally on the AppleTV device. In this situation, a separate copy of the content is made for each AppleTV device.
Second is a streaming mode. In this situation, nothing is cached to the AppleTV. All content (video, audio and pictures) are streamed in real-time to the device from a PC or Mac running iTunes. Note that you have detailed control over what is cached and what is streamed. You can cache photos and stream everything else. Additionally, if you have 5 videos, you can choose to cache 2 of them. The AppleTV interface will still show all 5, but 2 will play locally and the remaining 3 will be streamed.

The options within iTunes for controlling what is synced is also robust: "X most recent", "X most recent unwatched", "these specific items" and "this playlist".

It is my understanding that the cached mode is to support Wifi connections. While you can stream photos, audio and standard definition TV/movies over Wifi without problems, You will start to run into problems if you have Wifi reception problems or try and stream higher quality video. Pre-caching resolves those issues. However, if you have a strong 802.11N WIfi link you SHOULD be able to stream over Wifi without problems. Also caching allows the iTunes host computer to be turned off while using the AppleTV.

Obviously, full streaming is meant for wired connections and requires the host iTunes computer to remain on. I use a wired setup and routinely stream max quality content (720p) to two devices at the same time.

The AppleTV architecture does not use extenders, the way I describe it. There is a central host PC or Mac that runs iTunes. All content is stored in iTunes and each AppleTV connects directly to this host.

--
Jayson

 

[CollinR]

Note the repetitive use of the term iTunes...

I don't know much about AppleTV but I know enough about their other products to expect limited compatibility, DRM even on your private content and a stylish case with a nice interface.

 

[jkmonroe]

of course, you could think of the Apple TV itself as the extender. and yes, it sucks that you need to have iTunes running. but we all have low power home servers, don't we?

it has a few things going for it. it connects directly to iTunes for rentals: browse, click, watch. its interface is top notch as with all things apple. its extensible via easy 'patchstick' hacks to include XBMC, Boxee, File based content, various media players, a WWW browser, and all sorts of other things. and its cheap @ $230.

my current plan is Tivo for DVR, appleTV for ripped Movies/TV Series/Internet Videos (DRM free).

 

[Sacedog]

my current plan is Tivo for DVR, appleTV for ripped Movies/TV Series/Internet Videos.

Or you could just use Sage for everything, and have a single interface, using a single input on your TV, for ALL of your media. Trust me, the single interface has a very high WAF.

 

[CollinR]

Agreed, plus no DRM!

 

[jaysonc]

Wait, and Sage does not require hardware running in the background to server content? Of course it does.

All video solutions will either have a background server running or every TV will have to have duplicate content cached locally. Locally (to a TV) hosted content will always be a more expensive solution, a solution with a background server will always require the server/software to be running. It is disingenuous to call out iTunes as a negative for AppleTV when Sage requires a very similar application to support it.

It seems to me the SageTV and AppleTV are very similar. Choose the one with the front-end you like the best. They are both capable products that can do anything you want.

For the record I use Mythtv for my DVR (both SD and HD content) which I push into iTunes beside my DVDs, CDs and digital pictures. All DRM free. My wife and I get a single interface to stream any of this content.

--
jayson

 

[upstatemike]

I agree that iTunes, Windows Media Center, and any other OS sponsered media solution is probably garbage but the point of the question was really the video distribution architecture. It looks like AppleTV has a solution that will work where high bandwidth real-time streaming is not feasible. The question was: Does Sage or anybody else have a a low bandwidth option to compare to the Apple strategy of caching content locally at each TV?

 

[CollinR]

Yes the new extenders both posses that capablity as well as dynamic streaming so the server will adjust streamed content to fit the available pipe.

The new extenders also do not require you to have the server functioning for playback of local content.

The HD extenders can operate in placeshifter mode at your friends house via your residential internet connection.

 

[CollinR]

For the record I use Mythtv for my DVR (both SD and HD content) which I push into iTunes beside my DVDs, CDs and digital pictures. All DRM free. My wife and I get a single interface to stream any of this content.

--
jayson

Thats sweet, how are you pushing it to iTunes?

Er im thinking getting it in may be easier then getting it out, have you found a way to sync your iphone/ipod without using the iTunes GUI interface?

 

[jaysonc]

It is a fairly simple process, but I admit is does have a couple of parts.

1. When completed, I have Mythtv place a copy of the recording in a directory along with a file containing: showname, description, TV rating, etc.
2. On a schedule, I have a shell script (OS X is just Unix behind the pretty gui) that does most of the work:
A. move the content (both SD and HD) to my Mac.
B. Push the video through a hardware (USB) H.264 encoder chip.
C. Use an open source program to add the program details (show name, description, TV rating, etc) along with a screen shot of the show title to the MP4 file.
D. Add the new file to iTunes.
3. Voila, I have a very nice named and categorized video entry in iTunes that looks just like content the DRM content you purchase, but without the pesky DRM.

This pulls down about 23 shows a week. Completely automated and has been running for well over a year.

I do a similar thing for DVDs using programs called Handbrake and Metax but it is still a manual process.


I encode everything to the max quality the AppleTV will support, unfortunately, iPhones and iTouches can not handle that content. For content I want (or am requested by the wife) to put on a phone, I push the video through the hardware encoder chip a second time with an output setting that is supported by the iPhone.

No, there is no way to officially sync content with the iPhone without going through iTunes. There are solutions for jailbroken phones, but I do not feel the need to use them. iTunes is not that bad. I have never run into a situation where I felt restricted by it and it allows me to consolidate and manage all of my media in one place.

I just looked and my iTunes library has 1.11TB in over 2500 files. It does not miss a beat. If it can manage and stream that much data successfully, how bad could it be?

--
jayson

 

[roussell]

...
2. On a schedule, I have a shell script (OS X is just Unix behind the pretty gui) that does most of the work:
A. move the content (both SD and HD) to my Mac.
B. Push the video through a hardware (USB) H.264 encoder chip.
C. Use an open source program to add the program details (show name, description, TV rating, etc) along with a screen shot of the show title to the MP4 file.
...

I spec-ing a parts for a Mythbox for use with ATV now and would love to know more about your SD and HD cards and especially more about the process/apps/hardware you use in 2B and 2C above. Please PM if too off-topic for the thread.

Thanks,
Terry

 

[jaysonc]

I use:

2x Hauppauge PVR-250 PCI cards for SD content.
1x SiliconDust HDHomeRun devices for HD Content.
1x Elgato H.264 for the hardware video encoding.
Atomic Parsley for adding the tags to the MP4 video files.

--
Jayson

...
2. On a schedule, I have a shell script (OS X is just Unix behind the pretty gui) that does most of the work:
A. move the content (both SD and HD) to my Mac.
B. Push the video through a hardware (USB) H.264 encoder chip.
C. Use an open source program to add the program details (show name, description, TV rating, etc) along with a screen shot of the show title to the MP4 file.
...

I spec-ing a parts for a Mythbox for use with ATV now and would love to know more about your SD and HD cards and especially more about the process/apps/hardware you use in 2B and 2C above. Please PM if too off-topic for the thread.

Thanks,
Terry

 

[johnnynine]

Will Sage TV (or any capture cards) support reading non-over the air HD content? I think as of about a year ago capture cards could only read unencrypted signals. (perhaps I'm mixing over-the-air with encrypted incorrectly here).

Johnny

 

[jaysonc]

That is true. It is because capture cards can never meet the minimum requirements for obtaining the keys to unencrypted the content. Any device that is "approved" for meeting the minimum requirements is typically a closed system. (Tivo, Media Center, etc.)

Both over-the-air (ATSC) and ClearQAM (cable based) can come in encrypted and unencrypted versions. Unless you have an "approved" device, you can only receive unencrypted channels. To be approved, you have to demonstrate that you will not pass high quality digital signals to any device that is not also "approved".

Typically, all over-the-air signals are unencrypted as the FCC has a ruling that says something like, "the local networks are public and as such the broadcasters can not restrict your access...", I paraphrase that greatly. If you have cable service you will see a lot more encrypted channels, but the same over-the-air channels should still come in unencrypted.

I get all of the major networks (ABC, NBC, FOX, etc.), plus a few more channels over ClearQAM in my area.

--
Jayson

Will Sage TV (or any capture cards) support reading non-over the air HD content? I think as of about a year ago capture cards could only read unencrypted signals. (perhaps I'm mixing over-the-air with encrypted incorrectly here).

Johnny